Discussion in 'Help and Rules' started by John Fredrick Parker, Apr 19, 2019.
Spacebattles, Sufficient Velocity, What does QQ stand for?
Questionable Questing, a forum for NSFW RP and stories. For obvious reasons I'm not gonna provide links to there.
Also, I'd add that a lot of published AH is lumped into the Greater Sci-Fi ghetto, which tends to be more male-dominated on the whole. So it's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg thing. Is it a male-dominated area because it started that way and thus attracts men, or because the roads in are male-dominated and thus not many women arrive?
Both. I only felt comfortable studying history alone and from a countercultural lens. I feel like many marginalized people get into history and other disciplines through unconventional roads.
My relationship with spec fic was finding its queer underground.
As someone who has been on this site for a while, I feel like there's a significant female lurker population on here. Women are just as interested in history as men, it is just that AH.com tends to be a very male dominated site, not to mention there was a bit of trouble earlier with a few female posters having...less than stellar times on AH.com. However, I guarantee that there is at least a small portion of people on AH.com that are cis females but really don't talk much about it and thus are assumed to be male.
I would very much assume so.
This can be interpreted as sexist. Would you mind explaining it?
- Historical Romance is much, much larger than current AH community in Internet; Reign TV Series, Georgian/Victorian Historical Romances, East Asia period dramas all very popular.
- like ASOIAF most of these have strong and interesting characters; and ASOIAF is having large number of threads on WI
- many such series provide enormous amount of What If scenario
- any WI fanfic on hsitorical drama/romance is technically still Alternate History, it just never appear here.
- many successful TL is actually about very short period of history; with characters fortune, success, and life celebrated by readers; long TL with emphasis on world history like Chaos Timeline is frequently bland and uninteresting.
- romances and sex is part of human life and history; no different than battles and war.
- sex is frequently part of many historical drama/romances; both at original material and fanfic; and many female fanfic writer and reader often accept such scenes
- AH is rather aggressive on condemning sex scenes which would be tolerated on "normal prime time TV"
- accepting historical drama/romances as part of AH, even if had no battles, would enlarge AH community and include many female fans who never involved with AH before.
example : WI scenario on Bu Bu Jing Xin (about Kang Xi succession, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bu_Bu_Jing_Xin) or about Reign (Anne of Scots, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/Reign) is still AH, and would be no worse than ASOIAF scenario.
I see. That's something to consider.
While I agree, it should be remembered that ace and aro people like me are also part of online communities. There are also a lot of people who love looking at large-scale systems/dynamics of societies/institutions, and people who are fascinated by aspects of human culture that aren't romance, sex, or war/violence. As well as those who are uncomfortable writing about these things for a variety of personal reasons.
I do agree that there should be much more tolerance towards writing featuring these things, however. The vocal intolerance seems to come from an altogether toxic source.
I also find it a problematic notion that women are only capable of having certain notions, certain motivations, certain thoughts, certain rhetorical styles, and enjoying certain things. I feel like Lyudmila Pavlichenko or Gao Guiying would have had something to say about the idea that no woman can have a martial inclination or a soldier's heart. It is not the subject matter, but the unwelcoming, insular culture of places like this and the systematic marginalization and intimidation of people coded as women in all literature that causes these disparities. It should be also noted that people may be uncomfortable revealing their gender for a variety of reasons including this culture of exclusion and toxicity, and even try to pass as cis-men in order to be respected.
Personally, I only frequent a few trusted places on the internet for this reason, and have never used my legal name anywhere. I do like that the site culture here has gotten a lot more queer friendly lately, though a lot of work still needs to be done at all echelons to make it a safe space.
If overly direct criticism and abrasive tone are to blame for the dearth of cis women, then I think there are one or two posters who should re-read what they wrote in this very thread... The only people who're going to be attracted by what's on display here are professional shit-stirrers, 94.36% of whom will be men looking for a macho showdown with other men over who's the most feministest.
Today on Why is AH.com Male-Majority: Posters say girls want to write sex scenes and the fact that they can't turns them off the site.
This makes two very, very dumb assumptions. One is that romance subplots must lead to a sex scene. This is objectively untrue. Take The Office, for example. On one hand, sex is commonly talked about and lampshaded on The Office; on the other hand, no sex ever takes place on camera. Not to mention, not every relationship fundamentally leads to sexual activity within a timescale of a few months. "Sally, Joe, three nuns, a rabbi, and the Icelandic ambassador to Turkmenistan ducked into the backroom, eagerly holding each others hands hands on their way there. [insert timeskip to next scene here]" is not against the rules, "Sally, Joe, three nuns, a rabbi, and the Icelandic ambassador to Turkmenistan ███████████ ████ ██████ ██████ ██ █████████████ ██ ███ ████ ████ with a plunger ████ █████████ ██ ██████████ ████ ███ ██ ████ ██ and out the open window █████ █████████████ ██ ██ ██████ ██ fettuccine alfredo ██████ ██ ███ ██████..." is.
The second is more egregious: that girls don't join the site because they can't write romance->sex AH. Honestly, a bigger sticking point is that AH.com as a site is far more geared towards big picture things. Most TL's are written like textbooks. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It just means that very person-driven stories end up getting kinda pushed to the side. I actually think that this aspect is getting somewhat better, since comments that boil down to "well ACKTUALLY the Austro-Hungarian army used the Kummerspeck 6.3 as opposed to the Kummerspeck 6.29 during this time period therefore your whole TL is utter garbage and you should never even look at history again you dishonorable swine" have been in far shorter supply now than they used to be. Yet, I feel like character-driven AH, which would not just attract women to AH but a wider audience in general, is still missing from AH.com. I kind of get why; writing convincing characters is hard, especially when you're trying to go and show an audience this awesome fantastic AH world you've painstakingly researched and built. The temptation to just go "screw characters, I'm just gonna tell my audience about this world I've built" is ever-present and unquenchable. And yet, if someone wanted that, they literally could just open up a textbook and learn about IRL history rather than AH. It's the old adage of "showing, not telling."
To conclude: AH.com doesn't really have an issue with sex occurring and more if an issue with sex scenes, but the fact of the matter is character driven "show don't tell" AH is woefully missing on AH.com, which doesn't just scare off a lot of women, but a lot of audience in general since reading what is essesntially a fictional textbook is appealing to only a few people. And this, plus the fact that a lot of women simply don't declare their gender (an estimated 30% of 4chan of all places is female, women just don't usually declare their genders due to 4chan being the Deep South of the Internet) IMO explains the precieved intense gender discrepancy between men and women on here.
Y'all can have this thread. It's gonna be nothing but gender stereotyping and trying to tell us what we're capable of thinking. I'm gonna go read some wuxia.
Typical "the problem is the people pointing out the problem" fallacies aren't going to attract women either. The idea that all women are thin skinned people who cannot tolerate conflict is ridiculous. Disrespect and patronizing attitudes do a lot more harm than people calling them out.
It's a good thing that I don't believe that, then!
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