AH.com Challenge: Make the Hebrews a Seafaring People

I never got the impression that the Kingdom of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel) was a very seafaring nation. So, my challenge for you today; make the Hebrews seafarers. Bonus points if you can make sailing an important part of their culture. Double bonus points if you can twist it so that this trait makes Israel a much more powerful nation.
 
A mass conversion of their phoenician neighbours would do the trick, and extend judaism to the mediterranean (Carthage was a phoenician colony, after all). The Assyrian conquest may force them to expand in even greater numbers.

But Jewish Carthage of Phoenicia probably would not fare better than their pagan counterparts agaist Alexander or the Romans, nor would Israel proper do better on the Roman conquest (OK; so Alexader and Rome may be butterflied, but similar empires would be born anyway).

Still, for a nation of seafarers, expulsion from your homeland would not be as traumatic as was for the OTL jews, and they would not be so dogmatic either, so they may even avoid the rebellion and expaultion altogether.
 

Susano

Banned
A mass conversion of their phoenician neighbours would do the trick, and extend judaism to the mediterranean (Carthage was a phoenician colony, after all). The Assyrian conquest may force them to expand in even greater numbers.
No, it wouldnt, really. Not conversion alone per se - by the time of the Kingdom of Israel and Judea (at any time pre-Babylonian Exile), there was no Judaism as a modern, proselyting religion. It was just the tribal religion of the Hebrews.
 
I never got the impression that the Kingdom of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel) was a very seafaring nation. So, my challenge for you today; make the Hebrews seafarers. Bonus points if you can make sailing an important part of their culture. Double bonus points if you can twist it so that this trait makes Israel a much more powerful nation.

The Tribe of Dan (Danites) were apparently a seafaring people, based on references in the Bible to "the ships of the Danites." Indeed, there is some reason to believe, based on things that have been found at Tel Dan, that they may actually have been a branch of the Sea Peoples with links to the Aegean which were "adopted" into the Israelite confederacy. If some way can be found to have the Danites assume the leadership position within the tribal confederation, you might see the Israelites as a whole become a seafaring nation. Once the benefits of overseas trade were fully recognized by the Israelite political culture, you might find them following the Phoenician path and establishing overseas colonies to facilitate such trade. You might also see Israelite expansion locally aimed at securing more of the seacoast for themselves. Probably the Philistines are subdued earlier, and possibly some of the Phoenician towns as well.
 
It would also mean that relations with the Phoenicians, the ancient Israelites one reliable ally, just went down the tubes.
 
It would also mean that relations with the Phoenicians, the ancient Israelites one reliable ally, just went down the tubes.

Would seem even more interesting than that. In a TL like that, Hebrews, Phoenicians, and Greeks would all be planting colonies on a competitive basis all around the greater Med basin. Three-way division of Sicily, perhaps?
 
A mass conversion of their phoenician neighbours would do the trick, and extend judaism to the mediterranean (Carthage was a phoenician colony, after all). The Assyrian conquest may force them to expand in even greater numbers.

<snip>

The Jewish religion back then was pretty exclusive, only direct desendents of Abraham were accepted as Jewish. Unless there was a very early migration to that area than I cannot see a conversion. I think the reverse would happen, the Jews of old had a "divine order" to clear the land of pegan religions through the use of massacre and genocide.
 
The Tribe of Dan (Danites) were apparently a seafaring people, based on references in the Bible to "the ships of the Danites." Indeed, there is some reason to believe, based on things that have been found at Tel Dan, that they may actually have been a branch of the Sea Peoples with links to the Aegean which were "adopted" into the Israelite confederacy. If some way can be found to have the Danites assume the leadership position within the tribal confederation, you might see the Israelites as a whole become a seafaring nation. Once the benefits of overseas trade were fully recognized by the Israelite political culture, you might find them following the Phoenician path and establishing overseas colonies to facilitate such trade. You might also see Israelite expansion locally aimed at securing more of the seacoast for themselves. Probably the Philistines are subdued earlier, and possibly some of the Phoenician towns as well.

Zebulun was also referred to as a seafaring tribe, although their traditional lands were inland.

Perhaps it's simpler than we're making it: the Israelites already had diplomatic and trade ties with the Phoenecians and some Phoenecian technology (writing, for example) had already been adopted by them. So why not have the Israelites adopt shipbuilding as well? Most of their traditional enemies in Old Testament times were not seafaring people, so the Israelites can establish trading posts throughout the Mediterranean and even up and down the eastern African coast without stirring up too many hornets' nests.

The only power likely to object is Egypt, but the ancient Egyptians were never a major sea power and they're too preoccupied with their own internal power struggles anyway. As long as the Israelites aren't planting colonies in Egyptian territory, the Pharaohs are likely to overlook Hebrew seafaring and may even try to cut some profitable deals if they can.

In time Israel will come into active competition with the Phoenecians, so at some point the respective rulers of the two nations will have to work out spheres of influence (but given how venal many of the Israelite kings were according to the Old Testament, I'm not sure how well they'd hold up their end of the bargain assuming they wanted to bargain at all).
 
Instead of incorporating the Phonecians the Jews could just copy them and transform themselves into a Thalassocracy of sorts.
 
Instead of incorporating the Phonecians the Jews could just copy them and transform themselves into a Thalassocracy of sorts.

Pretty much what I was thinking of. With the Greeks and later on the Persians starting to hit the high seas, the balance of power is shifted from land, with more rapid development of navigation (and therefore engineering, mathematics and possibly economics as well). We might even butterfly away Copernicus and Galileo (the Greeks were darned close to it as it was in OTL).
 
that was before Jonah was supposed to go convert Ninevah, yes? (& wasn't Ruth the Jewish wife of a non-Jew? Moaz, I think)

True, however, both Joshua and David were told to clear the land. (If they finished their job than there would be no problem in israel today.)

and it is Boaz, not Moaz. And you didn' t even bring up Rahab.
 
Well, there's been lots of interesting ideas so far. How would this affect Israel? Make it longer lasting, perhaps? Colonies always improved power, so long as you could hold on to them, so that might help. Would Israel perhaps end up as a major power?
 

Keenir

Banned
Well, there's been lots of interesting ideas so far. How would this affect Israel? Make it longer lasting, perhaps? Colonies always improved power, so long as you could hold on to them, so that might help. Would Israel perhaps end up as a major power?

compared to Persia, no. compared to Edom, maybe.
 
If the Carthaginians were successful in the Punic Wars, and Antiochus IV Epiphanes was successful in crushing the Maccabean Revolt in Judea, would the Phoenicians of Carthage remember the zealousness of the Jews before giving them refuge in North Africa?
 
All this talk and all I can think of is one thing standing in their way.



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"Mordechai, you get out of there right now! You could catch cold!"
 
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