AH Challenge -> Yiddish as Israel's national language

Old Airman

Banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technion_–_Israel_Institute_of_Technology
The cornerstone was laid in 1912, but studies only began 12 years later, following an intense debate over the language of instruction. Ezrah deemed Modern Hebrew inappropriate for scientific instruction, and demanded that German be used instead. However, in the aftermath of World War I and the decline of Germany's influence as a European superpower, Hebrew was adopted
Let Ezrah open the Technion half-dozen years earlier and German would likely replace Hebrew as a language of the learned part of Yishuv, with Yiddish being a vernacular, street-level lingua franca. Just for sheer fun, let Technion adopt Yiddish alphabet as a nod to history. Then, after Holocaust, Yishuv is likely to give a name "Yiddish" to a "language of Technion". After 1948 new language would be ruthlessly rammed down the throats of waves of new immigrants, exactly as Hebrew was IOTL.

The main problem with having Yiddish as the national language of Israel is the Holocaust. The majority of the Jewish victims were members of Eastern and Central European Jewry, the stronghold of Yiddish. ...
Or you could pull the irony card and have the Nazis deport Jews to Palestine (like they thought of doing before deciding on Madagascar prior to Wannsee).
Technically, Yiddish vs. Hebrew debate had been settled in Yishuv (Jewish community of Palestine) before WWII. Hebrew was to become a revived language of revived Jewish nation. All education since mid-1920s was in Hebrew. However, there's declaration and then there's math. Would Peel Comissions proposals of 1937 be implemented, EE Jewry could end up in Palestine instead of Auschwitz. In such a case, we have several hundred thousands of Hebrew speakers (mostly kids and teenagers plus some of their parents who chose to speak Hebrew out of ideological drive) diluted by 203 millions (Soviet Jews are dead anyway, neither they did consider themselves in danger being shielded by Red Army, nor Stalin would ever be willing to let them go) millions of native (or semi-native, assimilation went far among pre-war EE Jewry) Yiddish
speakers. Besides, don't forget that Hebrew of the day is completely devoid of native-speaking content creators (authors, jornos, playwrights, you name it). Al off them are former Yiddish- or Russian- (as in case of national theater) speakers. Most of them are likely to switch back to Yiddish to pursue greener pastures of established market. In this situation, best case scenario for Hebrew would be a role enjoyed by Gaelic in OTL Ireland. Everyone study it in school, nobody use it to conduct any real-life business.
 
^ Hmm, sounds like a workable solution for djudeo-espanyol (also known popularly, but erroneously, as Ladino) as well for those native Palestinian Jews who spoke it - with a head start since they were already there.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technion_–_Israel_Institute_of_Technology
Let Ezrah open the Technion half-dozen years earlier and German would likely replace Hebrew as a language of the learned part of Yishuv, with Yiddish being a vernacular, street-level lingua franca. Just for sheer fun, let Technion adopt Yiddish alphabet as a nod to history. Then, after Holocaust, Yishuv is likely to give a name "Yiddish" to a "language of Technion". After 1948 new language would be ruthlessly rammed down the throats of waves of new immigrants, exactly as Hebrew was IOTL.

No. German is not Yiddish, not at all. The German spoken at the Technion would have been very formal German, like that spoken in Vienna or Berlin, and students would not have spoken it off-hours. The effect would be more like teaching in Latin than anything else.

Technically, Yiddish vs. Hebrew debate had been settled in Yishuv (Jewish community of Palestine) before WWII. Hebrew was to become a revived language of revived Jewish nation. All education since mid-1920s was in Hebrew. However, there's declaration and then there's math. Would Peel Comissions proposals of 1937 be implemented, EE Jewry could end up in Palestine instead of Auschwitz. In such a case, we have several hundred thousands of Hebrew speakers (mostly kids and teenagers plus some of their parents who chose to speak Hebrew out of ideological drive) diluted by 203 millions (Soviet Jews are dead anyway, neither they did consider themselves in danger being shielded by Red Army, nor Stalin would ever be willing to let them go) millions of native (or semi-native, assimilation went far among pre-war EE Jewry) Yiddish
speakers.

There would be no mass immigration on the scale you're discussing. The lands granted by the Peel Commission to the Jews were less than half the size of the highly populated regions of Israel today, and lose a lot of prime agricultural land. Plus, there's no reason to think that Hitler and Stalin would let their Jews out.

And again: Jews arriving in Palestine are necessarily undergoing a religious experience, even if they're not that religious. A very large number of them adopted new names in an attempt to make a clean break with their old lives; a new language is used for the same region.
 
No. German is not Yiddish, not at all. The German spoken at the Technion would have been very formal German, like that spoken in Vienna or Berlin, and students would not have spoken it off-hours. The effect would be more like teaching in Latin than anything else.

However, if German/Yiddish was used at the Technion - say, as an informal register - it would gain many technical loanwords via German anyway. To outsiders, Yiddish and Standard German basically have no differences (except for the obvious ones, like religious vocabulary and an alphabet derived from Hebrew for the Yiddish), thus using German/Yiddish in the Technion would end up getting close to "de-Slavicizing" Yiddish and bringing it closer to German. Thus could using German/Yiddish at the Technion work.
 

Keenir

Banned
Plus, there's no reason to think that Hitler and Stalin would let their Jews out.

Was there anyone who could bribe Hitler?


off the back of my head, the following scenario arises:
some Americans - fans of how Hitler has pulled his nation out of such hardscrabble straits, whether or not they're fans of his politic - get either a private series of donations, or political allowances to Germany...with the price tag being the release of German Jews to Palestine.

though this would horrify Churchill, and put FDR in the spotlight.
 
Was there anyone who could bribe Hitler?

Aside from the Rothschilds, including the von Rothschilds of Vienna who had everything seized by the Nazis are were all killed?

No, no one I can think of. Hitler had a nasty habit when dealing with Jews of taking their money and doing whatever he'd been bribed not to do anyway.

off the back of my head, the following scenario arises:
some Americans - fans of how Hitler has pulled his nation out of such hardscrabble straits, whether or not they're fans of his politic - get either a private series of donations, or political allowances to Germany...with the price tag being the release of German Jews to Palestine.

though this would horrify Churchill, and put FDR in the spotlight.

No way. The American government would never, ever ever allow this. The Allies were quite aware of the Jewish condition during WWII, and were more concerned with ending the war quickly than doing anything direct about it. FDR knows that war is coming sooner or later - he won't help Germany.
 

Keenir

Banned
No way. The American government would never, ever ever allow this. The Allies were quite aware of the Jewish condition during WWII,

I thought knowledge of the Death Camps only entered Allied awareness (at least as something more than whispers and heresay) at the War's end.

in the beginning or middle of the War, did Churchill and FDR really believe* that the Jewish plight was worse than Nanking and other occupied areas under Japan?

* = beyond declaring Hitler to be a madman.
 
...with the price tag being the release of German Jews to Palestine.
First -- Pre war the US Government didn't care about the condition of German Jews -Remembre it was US pressure that caused Cuba to refuse admittance to the Jews on the MS St Louis.
The MS St. Louis was a German ocean liner most notable for a single voyage in 1939, in which her captain tried to find homes for more than 900 German Jewish refugees after they were denied entry to Cuba. The event was the subject of a 1974 book, followed by a 1976 motion picture Voyage of the Damned with the same title.
And all the Jews that did manage to make to the US during the War were put in a Detention Camp - For return after the War.

Second -- Following the 1920 & 1921 Riots Britian put a limit on the number of Jewish Immigrats to Palistine.
Following the 1930's Riots, Britain put a ban on any Jewish Immigration to Palestine, With the RN turning back dozens of ships from France and Italy loaded with Jews in 1940.

So even you struck a deal with Herr Hitler, There wouldn't be any where for the Refugees to go.
 

Old Airman

Banned
Hmm, sounds like a workable solution for djudeo-espanyol (also known popularly, but erroneously, as Ladino) as well for those native Palestinian Jews who spoke it - with a head start since they were already there.
Just want to point out that Ladino is by far minority language in 1930 Palestine. It is spoken by Balkan and Turkish Jews (off the top of my head, there was something like 5 "Turkish" synagogues in whole Mandate Palestine, which gives you total numerical strength of 10,000-20,000 out of roughly half-mil strong Yishuv, plus there was a similar sized-community of Salonikans in Haifa, but that's about it) and some North African ones (but their migration didn't start en masse before 1948). So, whatever happens in the great Yiddish-Hebrew spat wouldn't affect Ladino all that much (which is a bloody shame, really, the language sounds so great). OK, may be increased language tolerance would lead to more people speaking Ladino as second language in independent Israel.

German is not Yiddish, not at all. The German spoken at the Technion would have been very formal German, like that spoken in Vienna or Berlin, and students would not have spoken it off-hours. The effect would be more like teaching in Latin than anything else.
You are right as far as dialect is concerned. You are wrong as far as usage goes. Technion grads (a.k.a. ones who matter) would be more comfortable with German to discuss any "serious" matters than with any other language (just like Cantonese-speaking university grads in USA use English). I could see Yiddish relegated to secondary status among learned classes of "Ezrah's Palestine", but still very much alive, as "the street" would speak it.

There would be no mass immigration on the scale you're discussing. The lands granted by the Peel Commission to the Jews were less than half the size of the highly populated regions of Israel today, and lose a lot of prime agricultural land.
By 1939 European Jews were anxious to get out of Europe, even to swamps and deserts of rump Peel Israel. Peoples were charting rundown river crafts to sail to Palestine from Danube's mouth in the middle of winter (suicidal idea as it is, showing how desperate they were). So, with Peel Israel existing and letting everyone in, we can safely expect 2/3 of Polish, Hungarian, Romanian, Balkan and at least half of French and German Jewry to make a beeline there. Which comes to total of between 1.5 and 2.5 mils, 3/4 of whom are native Yiddish speakers and 3/4 of the rest knowing Yiddish as second language (I deducted Ladino speakers and fully assimilated ones who didn't know anything but French and German).

Plus, there's no reason to think that Hitler and Stalin would let their Jews out.
Stalin would not let his Jews out, as I said, nor they would be feeling need to ran pre-Barbarossa. So Soviet Jewry is doomed in this scenario :( However, IOTL Hitler was willing to expel (as opposed to exterminate) European Jews as late as autumn 1941 (so Polish and German Jews have at least 2 years to get out), and Hungarian and Romanian ones could ran til at least early 1944. Remember, those Madagascar-related projects were sunk by Allies' unwillingness to open an escape corridor, not by Hitler's unwillingness to send them (stripped of property and all valuables, fo course) down this corridor in 1937-1941.

And again: Jews arriving in Palestine are necessarily undergoing a religious experience, even if they're not that religious. A very large number of them adopted new names in an attempt to make a clean break with their old lives; a new language is used for the same region.
A lot of those name changes happened among very non-religious socialist Zionists (in fact, religious Zionism did appear mid-1920s only). However, often overlooked aspect is demoraphical composition of those early pioneers. They were overwhelmingly very young idealistic peoples, not burdened with families and attached responsibilities, often supported by families back home (Poland, Romania, Russia etc.) so they could pursue their fantasies in mere poverty, as opposed to utter starvation if they would have to rely on themselves only. Absolutely artificial subculture placing undue weight on ideology, not on "bear necessities of life" (my, do I love this cartoon). Torrent of European refugees would have very different composition. Families with obligations to support elders and young ones, relatively little influenced by ideology. And they would be absolutely overwhelming majority, don't forget it. In similar circumstances post-1991 Belarus adopted Russian language. And Russophone diaspora in post-1991 Israel created their own bilingual environment, even though they're mere 15-20% of population. Religious experience or not, Yiddish in Peel Israel would eat everything else alive.

I thought knowledge of the Death Camps only entered Allied awareness (at least as something more than whispers and heresay) at the War's end.
If Golda Meir didn't pad her memoirs, Yishuv and WZO leadership knew of concentration camps by autumn 1941. And deeds of death squads in occupied regions of the Soviet Union were documented by Soviets in January 1942, after Nazis were driven West from Moscow (not that Allies were going to bother themselves too much about those "Commie sympathizers" being summarily shot).
 
You are right as far as dialect is concerned. You are wrong as far as usage goes. Technion grads (a.k.a. ones who matter) would be more comfortable with German to discuss any "serious" matters than with any other language (just like Cantonese-speaking university grads in USA use English). I could see Yiddish relegated to secondary status among learned classes of "Ezrah's Palestine", but still very much alive, as "the street" would speak it.

Okay, so they're speaking German some of the time - there's no reason for them to speak Yiddish the rest of the time, just becaues they're speaking German for technical matters. I imagine they would still use Hebrew "at home", so to speak.

By 1939 European Jews were anxious to get out of Europe, even to swamps and deserts of rump Peel Israel. Peoples were charting rundown river crafts to sail to Palestine from Danube's mouth in the middle of winter (suicidal idea as it is, showing how desperate they were). So, with Peel Israel existing and letting everyone in, we can safely expect 2/3 of Polish, Hungarian, Romanian, Balkan and at least half of French and German Jewry to make a beeline there. Which comes to total of between 1.5 and 2.5 mils, 3/4 of whom are native Yiddish speakers and 3/4 of the rest knowing Yiddish as second language (I deducted Ladino speakers and fully assimilated ones who didn't know anything but French and German).
I'm sure they'd love to get there, I'm just not certain about the carrying capacity of the land. Sure, densities would be roughly equal to modern Israel's populated regions - but that happened slightly more gradually, and with more than a decade of extra prep work by the Yishuv.

Stalin would not let his Jews out, as I said, nor they would be feeling need to ran pre-Barbarossa. So Soviet Jewry is doomed in this scenario :( However, IOTL Hitler was willing to expel (as opposed to exterminate) European Jews as late as autumn 1941 (so Polish and German Jews have at least 2 years to get out), and Hungarian and Romanian ones could ran til at least early 1944. Remember, those Madagascar-related projects were sunk by Allies' unwillingness to open an escape corridor, not by Hitler's unwillingness to send them (stripped of property and all valuables, fo course) down this corridor in 1937-1941.
I wonder if Hitler would actually be willing to do this when push comes to shove; also, I wonder about transportation. Are these people walking?

A lot of those name changes happened among very non-religious socialist Zionists (in fact, religious Zionism did appear mid-1920s only). However, often overlooked aspect is demoraphical composition of those early pioneers. They were overwhelmingly very young idealistic peoples, not burdened with families and attached responsibilities, often supported by families back home (Poland, Romania, Russia etc.) so they could pursue their fantasies in mere poverty, as opposed to utter starvation if they would have to rely on themselves only. Absolutely artificial subculture placing undue weight on ideology, not on "bear necessities of life" (my, do I love this cartoon). Torrent of European refugees would have very different composition. Families with obligations to support elders and young ones, relatively little influenced by ideology. And they would be absolutely overwhelming majority, don't forget it. In similar circumstances post-1991 Belarus adopted Russian language. And Russophone diaspora in post-1991 Israel created their own bilingual environment, even though they're mere 15-20% of population. Religious experience or not, Yiddish in Peel Israel would eat everything else alive.
When I meant a religious experience, I meant in an abstract sense of a very deep spiritual process. I'd also like to note that the 4th Aliyah - predominantly entire families of middle class Poles fleeing to Palestine for economic and persecution reasons rather than idealistic ones. They still learned Hebrew very quickly.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that even if Hitler wants to let the Jews out of Germany, the British won't be letting them into Palestine.
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
I wonder if Hitler would actually be willing to do this when push comes to shove; also, I wonder about transportation. Are these people walking?
IIRC, the original plan was to (once Britain surrendered) utilize the British, French, and German navies to ferry the Jews to Madagascar.
 
Okay, so they're speaking German some of the time - there's no reason for them to speak Yiddish the rest of the time, just becaues they're speaking German for technical matters. I imagine they would still use Hebrew "at home", so to speak.

Even if it really is a continuum where Yiddish and German are essentially the same language? :rolleyes:
 
The more appropriate comparison would probably be Spanish and djudeo-espanyol, aka Ladino. ;)
Well, since most of use don't speak any Ladino.... The Latin/Spanish comparison would be better as Latin/Italian, and even that's overstating it.

As I understand it, if one is used to several German dialects, Yiddish is just another (with some wierd vocabulary, but a lot of that is religious and doesn't have any bearing on technical matters). For reference, my high school Latin teacher claimed that when she went to Italy, she was able to function fine with her Latin (?), even with e.g. cab drivers. Don't know how much that's true, and how much the drivers were motivated to understand this BIG, LOUD Scot, 'cause otherwise she'd keep talking at them, louder and louder....:)
 
The more appropriate comparison would probably be Spanish and djudeo-espanyol, aka Ladino. ;)

No, it wouldn't. The German spoken in the technical institutes of Vienna was not "street German". A comparison might be Court Spanish to Ladino, but I prefer the Latin analogy, as it carries the proper connotations of academic use.
 

Old Airman

Banned
Okay, so they're speaking German some of the time - there's no reason for them to speak Yiddish the rest of the time, just because they're speaking German for technical matters. I imagine they would still use Hebrew "at home", so to speak.
They're coming from Yiddish-speaking families, most of them. So, they'll pay homage to Hebrew but are likely speak German in office and Yiddish at home.

I'm sure they'd love to get there, I'm just not certain about the carrying capacity of the land. Sure, densities would be roughly equal to modern Israel's populated regions - but that happened slightly more gradually, and with more than a decade of extra prep work by the Yishuv.
Believe me, carrying capacity would be the least in list of alt-Israel priorities. They'll go in America yarmulke in hand. And I'm sure American Jews can corral enough dough to feed their refugee brethen for a couple of years.

I wonder if Hitler would actually be willing to do this when push comes to shove; also, I wonder about transportation. Are these people walking?
I can't jump into Hitler's brain (thanks G-d), so no guarantee. However, even generally Anglo-American biased English WP acknowledges that IOTL he turned his ear toward advocates of mass killings only after all schemes to expel went nowhere. So, there's a chance he would be able to do it. Logistics would not be easy, but would not be impossible.

I'd also like to note that the 4th Aliyah - predominantly entire families of middle class Poles fleeing to Palestine for economic and persecution reasons rather than idealistic ones. They still learned Hebrew very quickly.
They were still a minority (besides, hebraists did have trouble with those people, kids were sanctioned in schools, people were harrassed for not speaking Hebrew).

EDIT: I'd also like to add that even if Hitler wants to let the Jews out of Germany, the British won't be letting them into Palestine.
We're speaking about Peel Palestine (1937 partition). It would, most likely, be a member of the Commonwealth, but in such a matter it would show a middle finger to His Majesty.

Re: Yiddish vs. German: Modern German is based on Hochdeutsch, while Yiddish is a Low German dialect. They're not the same but they can comfortably co-exist the way Russian and Ukrainian did in Ukraine pre-1991. Most of official business was conducted in Russian (including good university education), but one effortlessly switched from Russian in office to Ukrainian at home. It wasn't even considered bilingualism.
 

I'm ending the vicious cycle of point-by-point sniping!:D

Anyway, to return to the original German Technion thing: I don't see why having German be the language of the Technion instead of Hebrew would encourage Yiddish at home. In fact, by historical precedent, we can assume that technically minded Jews (which is not nearly all of them!) will be speaking German at home!:p

As far as carrying capacity is concerned, I am very concerned about it: the Americans (including the American Jewry) were very happy to ignore the Jewish situation in Europe through pogroms and Nuremburg Laws; I see no reason why starvation would be different.

As for the Hebraists...IOTL, they would stand in the street handing out cards that read "Jews speak Hebrew!" to passersby speaking Yiddish. I don't think numbers will deter them.
 
As for the Hebraists...IOTL, they would stand in the street handing out cards that read "Jews speak Hebrew!" to passersby speaking Yiddish. I don't think numbers will deter them.

Now I'm getting visions of someone who gets handed one of those cards and then responds with "j'suis 'cadjen, et les 'cadjens parrle en frrançais" in a broad Acadian accent, leaving the poor Hebraist confused. :D
 
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