AH Challenge: Weakest United States in 20th Century

Anaxagoras

Banned
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to create a scenario in which the United States is as weak as possible throughout the 20th Century. This is in terms of military, political and economic strength. No PODs before January 1, 1900, are permitted.

My own guess is that America is going to be a considerable power under any conceivable scenario, barring ASB intervention. But how weak can it realistically be?
 
Minimum US

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How would the Confederate States exist if the POD is January 1900? Alaska would still have been purchased in 1867. When would Canada have invaded the US?
 

boredatwork

Banned
PoD - Manhattan nightmare.

US atomic weapons research goes seriously awry in '42 at the early stages, a critical mass detonates in (pick a large city - I go with chicago, but you can pick your own, NYC is a poetic choice, given the 'manhattan' project) Chicago.

The city is reduced to a radioactive wasteland, destroying large chunks of American industry and breaking the national will to survive. America accepts terms equal to the wildest dreams of Tojo's imperialists, and withdraws to Hawaii. Alliance with UK (blamed for goading the US into the war) is shattered, US turns it's back on WW2, and on the world in general, becoming grimly isolationist, and focused narrowly on the western hemisphere.

As the war in Europe drags on, the US acts to prevent further involvement by expelling European colonies from the caribbean.

The inevitable long term result is another war with british north america. Early successes lead to an exhausting and debilitating long term insurgency and campaign of suppression and relocation.

By 1960, the US is a second rate (at best) power in a world increasingly dominated by India. Society is isolationist, racist, casually brutal, and strictly monitored. Separatist efforts in the northern territories (former canada), Cuba and the south west simmer, race riots (this US never had a civil rights movement) drain more blood and periodically destroy the proto-formations of black and hispanic middle classes. Separationism is "finally" put down in the mid 60's by mass deportations - canada in particular is largely emptied out, as canadians are forcibly moved to the the south and southwest.

By the late 1970's even this grim balance begins to shatter. The is no more money to fund the armies, and too few young men willing to kill on behalf of freedoms they've never enjoyed. The first rebellions start in Alaska, Hawaii, and Cuba - farthest from the center's of power. But once the dam breaks, the desire for a return to misremembered times before the wars runs wild.

By 1985 Alaska, Hawaii, Cascadia, California, Texas, Cuba, the New Confederacy, New England, and Quebec are all independent.

By 2008 the rump US is regarded much as Russia today - a corrupt and ruthless state in the process of decline, granted importance only due to strategic position, brutal tactics, and near monopoly of critical resources (breadbasket for much of the world).

The end to US aid / convoys screwed the UK logistics beyond repair. In 43, after the final collapse of the African front, Britain comes to terms - the empire is over, what remains of the RN is scuttled, Ireland and scotland recieve illusory independence (they, like the rump English Republic, are permanently under the thumb of the Greater German Reich and their fellow puppet states in the European Protectorates. Stalin never received the supplies needed for the Red Army's push. The Soviet/Nazi front deadlocked in mid Ukraine, with Europe and Russia both gradually impoverished and emptied to feed the steppe meat grinder of their leaders' ambitions. The long war, which will define western Eurasia for the rest of the century, has begun. Coups & countercoups ripple through both sides, and over time the transformation of both into Nationalist-Militarist-Socialist-Totalitarianism differentiated only by the language of their rulers is widely recognized by those lucky enough not to live under either regime.

Mao & CKS continue their drawn out insurgencies against the Japanese, with both sides descending in a spiral of increasingly bloody and barbarous reprisals. Eventually the Japanese resort to nerve gasing rebellious villages. The war winds up in the late 50's due to mutual exhaustion - Japan has no more sons to die for the emperor, and coastal china is a wasteland of lingering toxins and burnt out cities. Japan faces a grim future, as the rising Chinese states, and the emerging Indian "Greatest" power view it with unbridled loathing.

An impoverished military dictatorship holds on in Japan and Korea until the Indo-Arab wars of the late 70's and the resultant oil shocks shatter the regime, just one of many casualties - a fragile regime held together by suspicion, fear, and propaganda.

... ok, so I'm feeling gloomy today. I'll go for cheerful tomorrow.
 
A possible idea in short (with perhaps a bit of ASB):

The Zimmerman Telegraph is not intercepted. Mexico decides to accept it (warhawks have more influence or something). Mexico declares war on the US. The US is unable to get into the European war and deals with Mexico. Mexico and the US make a ceasefire around 1918, with Mexico taking control of New Mexico and Arizona (guerrilla's follow). US builds a wall along border and attempts to rebuild its economy over the next few decades. The US is heavily hit with the depression. No FDR rises to take the country out of the Depression and the US recovers over the next decades instead of a few years per OTL. US fights Pacifc war with Japan over Pearl Harbor, which ends in a stalemate and even more money lost due to war expenses. Though the war time production stimulates the economy slightly, there was no FDR to build up the industry that would be used OTL to produce those arms once war came, so the US had to build up industry after war came.
 
Why is Canada always invaded by the States...the Americans were more interested in expanding their influence over Central America, not Canada.

If the US decided to focus more on the American continent then they certainly wouldn't invade Canada, it would bring most of the world's super powers against them, especially the entire British Empire.

If it happened in 1914 then maybe the Triple Entente would go to war with America, with most of the fighting taking place in Canada and the Carribean.

Mexico would join, invading the States from the South, while Russia re-occupied Alaska. The Royal Navy would invade American territory in the Pacific. French, British Imperial and Canadian troops would fight the Americans in Canada...

Just some thoughts
 
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to create a scenario in which the United States is as weak as possible throughout the 20th Century. This is in terms of military, political and economic strength. No PODs before January 1, 1900, are permitted.

My own guess is that America is going to be a considerable power under any conceivable scenario, barring ASB intervention. But how weak can it realistically be?

That is a harsh point of departure because as of 1900 America is the world's leading industrial power and has the worlds second highest GDP.

What is going to cripple it? Even if it's on the loosing side in WW1 (somehow) it will probably not be made to suffer greatly.

Maybe the business plot against Roosevelts new deal is successful, fascist/corporate rule is established over America but there is a civil war?
 
Partly depends on how you define weak. Talking about militarily weak and if so because it gets really stamped on some time or simply because it never developed sizeable military forces. Culturally or economically weak? Again different things although associated.

A few things come to mind as possibilities, although probably fairly long shots. Going in rough order of POD:

a) Teddy Roosevelt never manages to limit the power of big business. Steadily growing economic inequality coupled with continued immigration from Europe means a bitterly divided society with growing social tensions and violence. Not necessarily leading to an out and out revolution but continuing tension and conflict could be pretty destructive. Racial tension and restrictions on immigration as a result led to a much narrower viewpoint with far less scientific and cultural development. American spends most of the century as a very large version of a Latin American type military junta.

b) Anglo-German alliance agreed early in the century. Clash with the Franco-Russian bloc say about 1908. [picking year pretty much at random]. With Austria, Ottomans and Italy quite possibly all on the A-G side there is heavy fighting but its pretty much a forgone conclusion. Some conflict starts with the US towards the end of this war [ some disagreement over European colonies in Americas, Ireland, US fear of the collapse of balance of power, whatever].

Long and bitter war sees US ultimately defeated. It lacks the manpower and military expertise to stand against the alliance. Heavy fighting to drive its forces out of Canada and occupation/devastation of much of the coastal regions.

This sets the scheme for possibly a later war with a US possibly with allies seeking revenge but again defeated, this time after much heavier fighting. Again much destruction further setting back developing while war debts, population loss and curtailed immigration greatly reduces its strength.

c) Post-WWI [probably with variants, conflict between US and Anglo-Japanese alliance, possibly with other allies. US could win this but so could the allies. Things could get very, very nasty and extreme losses for the US if one or two bad decisions are made.

d) Roosevelt - the other one - doesn't get elected in 1932. Retrenchment stays the government policy. Possibly also some different situation in Europe so no demand for US weapons and equipment. Hence deep depression continues and social division and improvishment greatly increased. This could be a later version of a) or result in civil war/revolution/political extremism. [An American Hitler with his sort of racial insanity would really screw up the US].

e) Possibly US stays isolationist for assorted reasons. As such not a major player politically and possibly a more protectionist world, say without WWI. Hence other powers are stronger economically and military tension. When the US does get involved, possibly in a later stage of some European conflict , it commits just before the other side starts deploying its newly developed nukes.

You could have other circumstances, such as some classical WWIII mutual destruction in the 70's or 80's but that doesn't really meet the condition of a US weak throughout the period.

Steve
 
Not much of a challenge at all. Simply have Syracuse University develop nuclear weapons and the United States to sit out WW2 while the Syracusians takes off almost all of Europe. Then, in the 1980s, the Syracuse University pulls off a successful disarming strike against the United States and occupies the country.

USA--vestigial government of Hawaii.
 
Cuban missile crysis go really bad...

by 2008 US are no more than a cuple underground installations.

pretty weak... but still quite powerfull if compared to the rest of the world.
 
a few PODs to look at

1. no TR presidency, leads to unchecked big business, some time in the 1920s an Anarchist Revolution brakes out

2. FDR dies before taking office, a communist revolution brakes out and is fallowed by a civil war

3. Cuban missile crisis goes to hell, a dozen US cities are nuked and the US is still under Martial law

4. a more repressive 50's and 60's leads to a mass civil unrest in the late 60's early 70's

5. Reagan starts WWIII, most of the world is dead, President for Life George H. W. Bush rules a small group of underground installations
 
The Cuban Missile Crisis leading to a crippled USA 20 years or more later is stupid on its face. Worst case we loose a dozen cities. So what... yes many people die, economy goes down the drain but the US's economic power would recover. Look at Europe and it took them how long to recover from WW2 and Europes cities were far worse damaged. Look up some of the RAND corps studies you need a much large hit than the Cuban missile crisis would produce to long term cripple the US or something combined with it.

Michael
 
The Cuban Missile Crisis leading to a crippled USA 20 years or more later is stupid on its face. Worst case we loose a dozen cities. So what... yes many people die, economy goes down the drain but the US's economic power would recover. Look at Europe and it took them how long to recover from WW2 and Europes cities were far worse damaged. Look up some of the RAND corps studies you need a much large hit than the Cuban missile crisis would produce to long term cripple the US or something combined with it.

Michael

What about radiation?
 
To de-wank America, wank one of its contenders to the wank crown- Russia or Germany. make it so that it leaves the wanked power with enough manpower, industry and resources to beat the US to the bomb and use it on the U.S of A.

Here's a rough "Germany defeats USA" scenario.

Germany wins WWI in Europe , asks France and Italy to surrender their Navy and Air Forces. Most of Eastern Europe becomes German Puppets. Civil War in Russia rages on, but the German Army manages to destroy Bolsheviks in the Ukraine and Caucasus, an anti Bolshevik "Kazakh" state is also established. Bolshevik Gains are contained to Russia proper.

Even while victorious, German political situation worsens. To relieve some of the pressure, the Imperial Government begins to forgive some of the allied Reparations, and recognizing Bolshevik gains, cancelling a very ambitious expansion the Navy. This angers many veterans of the war-- who feel that their gains are being squandered by a lazy and decadent Kaiser. In the 1920s The Germans Veterans Party is formed-- dedicated to oppose the "giving up of war gains", and "modernizing" aspects of German Society and making it into a "Total War Economy" until Germany secures its place as the foremost Nation on Earth. Membership is composed mostly of Veterans and the Middle Class, opposed to the German "Vons" running things. Erwin Rommel, of middle class extraction, quickly joins. Unlike the Nazis of OTL, the party is anti-traditionalist and technocratic, favouring Anglo-American methods of industry (employing women, assembly lines, etc) while admiring German discipline and thoroughness on the battlefield. The party is line is neutral on minorities but favours a "Greater Germany" seeing Nation-states as more efficient than Empires. The only "irrational" component in their worldview is an imminent fear of the British Empire and America and a desire to see them destroyed. "Veteran's Parties" along the lines of the German one are formed among other Nationalities in the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires.

In the 1930s, the various "Veteran's parties" come to power, starting a "rerun of 1848" with the end consequence being the dismemberment of Austria-Hungary and the formation of Greater Germany, which is allied with the smaller nation-states in former A-H led by their own Veteran's Party. The German Veterans Party immediately starts on a project of enormous Air and Naval forces expansion. Due to their technophile tendencies they kickstart an atomic bomb project, and commission engineer to design mass-produce-able aircraft, along with Aircraft Carriers. Von Braun also gets a lot of funding.

In a few years, Germany will have: a long range bomber capable of coming within a few hundred miles of the US Coast, a standoff, bomber-launched version of OTL's V-2, and the world's first few nuclear bombs.

Once war starts, Germany will be in a much stronger position compared to OTL due to the fact that they are stonger from winning WWI, better armed, well-run and less crazy. Once they take over the British Isles. (Entirely plausible in this TL), they Nuke the Eastern Sea-board make the US Sue for peace, and take over Europe to an even greater degree

Germany wins the race for space, while America is busy rebilding, and German technical expertise becomes higly desired in the Newly Independent nations n Eurasia and Africa, and German in on its way of becomes lingua franca of the world.

America responds by urging the OAS, to have a "cultural embrago" on Everything German-- making the Hemispheric division political as well. Soon enough though, American heavy-handedness in Latin America begins turning against her, and America loses her "backyard" ending the cold war and making German-led (and by now, well-unified) EU a hyperpower.

By the end of the century, the US is at best a second-rate power led by "a military reconstruction government" after quite a few of its population have been irrepairably lost
 
I have to say, this thread is instructive if only because it shows how hard it is to combat American great power status.
 
What about radiation?

Worst radiation effects are gone within days. You are looking at spike in cancer rates. Even with Megaton plus city busters. They are going to be airburst weapons and the most / worst failout is from ground burst short of using a cobalt 60 bomb.

Michael
 
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Worst radiation effects are gone within days. You are looking at spike in cancer rates. Even with Megaton plus city busters. They are going to be airburst weapons and the most / worst failout is from ground burst short of using a cobalt 60 bomb.

Michael

Indeed. Simply look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 
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