AH Challenge: Very large Asian American population

a) Why would China buy and Spain sell California. Unless you have a drastic change in not only Chinese power but also its aims. Traditionally, while it sought to have all recognise its superiority it only desired to conquer relatively adjacent regions.
Well if they pull the proverbial Meiji in 1750, they may become quite Westernized in their strategic vision by 1820. By late 18th century the Chinese population had tripled in two centuries. In a more open China many of those surplus population would migrate abroad, at least some will end up in Mexico. Maybe the government will see the value of overseas colonies instead seeing their tax base sail away.

Besides without The Chinese Rite Controversy there should be a lot more Chinese Catholics, and with the Spanish Philippines nearby, China and Spain may form a pretty solid relationship. Or they may have an adversarial relationship with Chinese migrants flocking to the Philipines. Spain was in bad shape from the Napoleonic Wars and in 1820 Mexico was about to be given independence, so why not sell California and get some money out of it. It might even be a way of diverting Chinese attention away from the Philippine islands which were more valuable in those days.

b) If a powerful China does obtain and settle California would the US be able, or willing, to conquer it?
I don't see why not. The Chinese empire is far away. It may be able to hold California against the Mexican army. But once US extends its borders to California the prospect of access to the Pacific coast would be irresistible. Thirty years is probably not enough time for the Chinese to really build up the infrastructure to defend it.
 
Well if they pull the proverbial Meiji in 1750, they may become quite Westernized in their strategic vision by 1820. By late 18th century the Chinese population had tripled in two centuries. In a more open China many of those surplus population would migrate abroad, at least some will end up in Mexico. Maybe the government will see the value of overseas colonies instead seeing their tax base sail away.

Possibly, although this is a considerable shift in the long time Chinese viewpoint.



I don't see why not. The Chinese empire is far away. It may be able to hold California against the Mexican army. But once US extends its borders to California the prospect of access to the Pacific coast would be irresistible. Thirty years is probably not enough time for the Chinese to really build up the infrastructure to defend it.

In terms of travel time and ease of movement China is a lot closer to California than the US is, prior to any trans-continental railway. The sort of China your suggesting would be at least comparable in strength to sizeable European states. It would also have an unparalleled manpower pool as well. The relatively small armies the US could push across the so called Great American desert and the Rockies, even if they had a technological edge would be unable to do more than raid the Chinese settlements. Also, presuming probably considerable Chinese settlement of the region, if somehow, say due to a Chinese civil war, the US managed to gain control of the area would they be able/willing to hold it?

Steve
 
Possibly, although this is a considerable shift in the long time Chinese viewpoint.

It is, but no more than the shift in Japanese worldview in the 70 years between 1860 and 1930. My premise being if a country "modernized" during the 19th century, it would adopt much of the prevailing prejudices of the times. And that was expand or decline. There were not a whole lot of sparsely populated territory with excellent climate and soil left uncolonized by that time.

In terms of travel time and ease of movement China is a lot closer to California than the US is, prior to any trans-continental railway. The sort of China your suggesting would be at least comparable in strength to sizeable European states. It would also have an unparalleled manpower pool as well. The relatively small armies the US could push across the so called Great American desert and the Rockies, even if they had a technological edge would be unable to do more than raid the Chinese settlements. Also, presuming probably considerable Chinese settlement of the region, if somehow, say due to a Chinese civil war, the US managed to gain control of the area would they be able/willing to hold it?

Steve

Maybe, but only if the Chinese empire threw its resources behind the preservation of this colony. One have to imagine China would have other pressing territorial commitments. Perhaps war with Russia, Spain, Holland, or Britain. It may even suffer internal revolution to oust the Manchu rulers. What's to say Chinese California wont declare independence?

The US will not rest until the Pacific coast is annexed. If not in 1850, then certainly by the 1860s.
 
OK the Chinese Exclusion Act wasn't till 1882, thro there was growing racism for years before that.

POD 1848
US accepts Lower [baja] California
1852
First proposal for a Railroad from Tijuana to San Francisco
1856
Construstion of the Railroad begins.
Due to the need for laborers the Railroad contracts with several shipping companies to Import Chinese Workers.
The Railroad agrees to pay for 5 women for every 100 men to -take care of the mans needs-
1857
First Smuggled Chinese arrive in the US, Basically Wonen Dressed as Men.
1858
Railroad companies in Oregon and Washington begin importing Chinese on the same terms as the California companies.
1861
Southern Congressmen and their opposition to Federal Monies being used for Improvement, Walk out of Congress. ACW begins.
1862
Pacific Railway act passed -West coasts railroads merge into the Union Pacific
http://www.sdrm.org/history/timeline/pac_rr_act_1862.html
While this allows the Railroad to sell alternate sections of land, the sales office will ignore this and sell all the land on both sides of the road.

The new Railroads begins Importing Chinese workers at a much greater pace.

1865
The first ship of Women paid for by collections of Chinese workers arrives at the Dock where the Railroads unloaded.
Almost unnoticed they are absorbed by the Growing Chinese Community.


1866
The Ten Year contracts for the first labors expire, and many workers especially in the Northwest leave the Railroads.

1868
The west coast Railroad from Tijuana reaches the south bound section from the North.
The railroad tries to ship the Chinese workers south, but problems arise. So the Railroad starts a Road East from Portland, with the Remaining workers, but stops importing Chinese to the North-West.

1872
The US Railroad Commissioner learns that the Union Pacific and the Central Pacific, are 15 miles pass each other about 1 mile apart
[OTL] They did this to get the sections of land to sell.
He calls them in and orders them to reline the routes to meet. Several months Later the Transcontinental is declared open.

First Japanese Pearl Fishermen Arrive in the Gulf of Baja, Most of them bring their whole families with them.

1873
The Union Pacific faces the cost of shipping all the Chinese Labor back to China as the Contracts require.
After a attemp to get the Government to pay fails, The leaders of the Chinese sugest the Roads give land them lnstead.
Over the next several years the Chinese recieve sections of land along the Railroads.
In later years it will be learned that these were the Other Sections, causing lots of legal problems.

1875
The Union Pacific becomes aware that the Chicago Pacific Railroad is pushing west at a rapid rate,
In response the Union Pacific Is forced to Import more Chinese to work on the Portland Line.

1883
The Northern Transcontinental is finished, and again the Railroad begins giving out sections of land, to cancel the contracts.
The Chinese Exclusion Act proposed

1884
The Chinese Exclusion Act passes, It is important to note that over 80% of the Chinese who arrived between the proposal and passage of the Act were Women, Coming as "Mail Brides"

1889
Baja becomes a US State after the Supremes rule that the population needed for statehood, meant Residents not Citizens.

1892
Unnoticed in the Chinese debate, Japanese become the Majority of South Baja. La Paz Is now the 45th largest Japanese city.
The Mexicans are the largest Minority, There are few whites [Gringos] with the largest group being Unreformed Mormons.

1894
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, the Supremes hold that Citizen can not be denied to a natural born offspring of US Residents.
This means that all US Born Chinese are US Citizens even if there Parents are ineligible for Naturalization.

The Chinese Exclusion Act is renewed for ten years

1895
Sino-Nipponese war
there is some tension between the Japanese and Chinese Communities in the South west.
But both Communities are into their third generation, and the tensions are soon forgotten when the war ends.

1898
Fergusson v the Southern Railroad. a Case brought by the NAACP..
The Supremes hold that "Separate but Equal" is Constitutional.

California and other Western States waste no time in imposing the ruling on the Chinese.

1902
Wang Fa Li in California is denied the right to register to vote despite getting 99 on the 100 question Poll test.
[He is told he needed 100%]

1903
The Supremes hold that while Poll test are Constitutional, the Rules must be applied equally to all Registrants.
The biggest number of Visible Chinese and the point of Conflict are living in the ChinaTowns inside the Cities.
However the larger population of Chinese are Farmers or small Chinese Farm Communities, in the land the Railroads gave them.
In some districts along the Railway they are close to 80% of the population, Hence they are the ones who administer the poll Tests.

1904
The year starts with a Scandal as Congress refuses to sit Jackie Chan, a Chinese Congressman from Union County.
The Scandal is worse because the Senate Agrees to sit the Japanese Senator from Baja by one vote.

The Chinese Exclusion Act, is renewed for ten Years, after the Filibuster by the Baja Senators fails.

1905
Russian-Nipponese War
Following the war Japan recives South Sahalikin Island and the island of Formosa.
In a attempt to speed colonization of the two, Japan puts restrictions on Japanese emigration.

1906
Congress is presented with Chinese Jackie Chan having been reelected in Oregon, as well as Chinese Wang Fa Li in California.
There is also two Japanese Congressmen Elected, one from Baja, With the other Baja Congressman being Mexican.
And one from Southern California.

After much Debate Congress bites the bullet and allows them to sit.

1910
The Oriental Congressmen are joined by several Black Members, the first since the end of Reconstruction.

1914
The Chinese Exclusion Act is narrowly renewed for six years.
In the Debate a alliance is formed between the Oriental and the Black Caucuses.

1917
US joins the Great War.
Like Blacks Chinese are refused from Combat units.
Japanese who are mostly Fisherman Join the Navy, fare better, but are still discriminated in the ratings they can work in.

1920
The Chinese Exclusion Act comes up for renewal and is defeated :cool:
But :( The Asian Immigrant Bill does pass, :rolleyes: this bill sets the Quota for all of Asia at 6000 persons.
This bill for a short while manages to unite Japan, China, Indochina, Indonesia, & India. in opposition.
 
Easy "cheat" answer is for the US to keep the Philippines, perhaps as one or probably two or more states. Not a big deal as it was US territory OTL during the early 20th century.

As of 2008, the Philippines has a population of 90 million. Though natives are technically Austronesian and not mainland Asian, they are generally lumped together with "Asian-Americans". There is also a significant minority who are of Chinese or mixed Phillipino-Chinese descent. Even assuming a much smaller population due to greater development, this would result in "Asians" becoming far more numerous than any other minority group, and even Asian-as-in-East-Asians would be more commonplace.
 

HueyLong

Banned
In terms of travel time and ease of movement China is a lot closer to California than the US is, prior to any trans-continental railway. The sort of China your suggesting would be at least comparable in strength to sizeable European states. It would also have an unparalleled manpower pool as well. The relatively small armies the US could push across the so called Great American desert and the Rockies, even if they had a technological edge would be unable to do more than raid the Chinese settlements. Also, presuming probably considerable Chinese settlement of the region, if somehow, say due to a Chinese civil war, the US managed to gain control of the area would they be able/willing to hold it?

Steve

The Pacific is harder to travel East on. So that's a big issue.
 

Hendryk

Banned
1905
Russian-Nipponese War
Following the war Japan recives South Sahalikin Island and the island of Formosa.
In a attempt to speed colonization of the two, Japan puts restrictions on Japanese emigration.
Japan got Formosa in 1895 at the Treaty of Shimonoseki, and since the First Sino-Japanese War takes place on schedule in this TL of yours, that wouldn't change.

1906
Congress is presented with Chinese Jackie Chan having been reelected in Oregon, as well as Chinese Wang Fa Li in California.
A detail: due to haphazard transliteration of Chinese names at the time, Wang was usually spelled Wong.
 
Top