AH Challenge: Venice=Rome

Thats right lets make the Venetian Republic at its height equal to Rome at its height. I believe the greatest threat to Venetian power was the rise of Ottoman power in the Mediteranean. I'm thinking instead of having the Genoese Republic and Venetian Republic duke it out have them form an alliance to protect Byzantium.
 
The size of the Roman Empire at its height?! You're going to need an early POD. Firstly, merchant republics aren't built for maintaining huge empires like that. See Genoa, Venice, the Dutch Empre, etc. They mostly just dabble wherever an economic opportunity is to be made.

Anyway, here's how I would go about doing it; some time in the seventh century the Lombards in Northern Italy leave Milan for some reason and focus on Venice. They mainy focus on naval matters, and over the next few decades they have conquered much of the Adriatic coasts. The Venetian Kingdom allies with Byzantium and take the rest of Italy and Tunisia from the Italian kingdoms and the Arabs. After another couple of wars with the Caliphate, the Venitians have taken Iberia and the rest of the Barbary Coast. They absorb Gaul and establish trading intrests in Englalund, which gradually turn into full-fledged colonies. By the eleventh and twelvth centuries, Venice has taken the rest of the Balkans and Egypt, and some time around 1200 Venice and Byzantium form a union. Over the next century this union solidifies and by the fourteenth century the Venetian Empire rules the Mediterranean. Not very plausible, but it's the best I got.
 
OKay good points made and great idea. I wasn't neccesarily speaking as equals in terms of size but in influence and in relative power.
 

ninebucks

Banned
After the Fall of Rome, the most productive way to forge a Christian Empire was through sexual politics - the creating of intertwined personal unions through strategic marriages. Venice couldn't go down this road because it was a republic - no neighbouring monarch would want to marry their daughter to the Doge of Venice as there's no guarantee of their offspring inheriting the office.

OKay good points made and great idea. I wasn't neccesarily speaking as equals in terms of size but in influence and in relative power.

Well in that case, this Venetian Empire will need to be many times larger than the Roman Empire! The medieval world was much more developed than the Roman world, isolated tribes were now centralised kingdoms, vast forests were now vast farms.

It was easy for Rome to reach its level of influence and power, because there were very few neigbouring areas that were developed enough to pose a competition to Rome. Rome didn't have to worry about challenges from organised states to the north, but TTL Venice would have to, unless they managed to completely subjugate them.

Although, after all these changes, would it really be Venice any more?
 
Hmmm well I would like to preserve OTL Venice in terms of culture and identity. Is there anyway for Venice to conquer the Papal States and southern Italy.
 
I'm thinking instead of having the Genoese Republic and Venetian Republic duke it out have them form an alliance to protect Byzantium.
Err...why? There was much more wealth to be gained by plundering the Byzantines than wasting time, effort and money to protect a dying empire.
 
OKay so lets have the Venetians conquer Byzantium then. I think an alliance with the Genoese is necessary though as Venice wouldn't be able to stand against the Ottoman alone.
 

Keenir

Banned
OKay so lets have the Venetians conquer Byzantium then. I think an alliance with the Genoese is necessary though as Venice wouldn't be able to stand against the Ottoman alone.

why does it have to? (and why would it only take one Ottoman to bring them down?) ;)


have the Venetians take the Greek route to power, getting further into bed with the Ottomans than the Venetians did in OTL.
 
Okay so the Venetians form an economic partnership with the Ottomans. They get access to Ottoman lands in exchange for what exactly?
 

Keenir

Banned
Okay so the Venetians form an economic partnership with the Ottomans. They get access to Ottoman lands in exchange for what exactly?

Ottoman protection from Christian pirates, which benefits the Venetians.

and the Venetians were known to be good at rallying opposition to the Second Rome (not just the 4th Crusade was the handiwork of Venice)...so a well-behaved Venice would be a boon in and of itself.
 
Have Venice stay as a Theme in the Eastern Roman Empire past the 10th century. They provide aid which allows Basil II and his successors to begin a reconquest of Justinian proportions, retaking the Levant, Italy, and the Balkans. After the Macedonian dynasty dies out, a Venetian doge gets crowned emperor, leading to a Venice which controls all of the Eastern Roman Empire. Best I could do. :eek:
 
Err...why? There was much more wealth to be gained by plundering the Byzantines than wasting time, effort and money to protect a dying empire.

This is the major point- a merchant republic isn't likely to go after land for the sake or land or glory or power. Where a more traditional power might try to conquer an entire province, for example, a merchant republic is likely to simply take the major ports and leave the hinterland to its own devices.
 
I reckon theyd need to colonise land and raise armies on it - whether Dalmatia, Pelopennese, Thrace, etc

Seapower can be a route to power, land power a route to holding it

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Have Venice stay as a Theme in the Eastern Roman Empire past the 10th century. They provide aid which allows Basil II and his successors to begin a reconquest of Justinian proportions, retaking the Levant, Italy, and the Balkans. After the Macedonian dynasty dies out, a Venetian doge gets crowned emperor, leading to a Venice which controls all of the Eastern Roman Empire. Best I could do. :eek:
That's what I thought when I read the thread title, heh. ;)
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
If the trade focus is not shifted to the Atlantic coast from the Mediterranean region you could get a very influential Venetian republic, not an Empire, but a powerful state with almost complete controll of trade (if they have crushed the Genoans, the Carthage of this scenario).
 
This is the major point- a merchant republic isn't likely to go after land for the sake or land or glory or power. Where a more traditional power might try to conquer an entire province, for example, a merchant republic is likely to simply take the major ports and leave the hinterland to its own devices.

You could have something like what happened with the British in India - they take the valuable ports, then they notice that if they took the sources of the stuff they're dealing in, they would be able to make more of a profit. So they take those areas. Then they're getting raided by guys from just over their borders... so they expand their territory to protect the ports and the sources of whatever it is they're trading. Which then means that a new bunch of guys are raiding them. So they go off and conduct punitive expeditions, build up a series of forts, and the next thing you know they own that land too. If that sort of cycle were to occur a few times over, a previously predominantly mercantile nation could find itself holding onto all sorts of stuff that isn't really that vital to their trading interests.

Of course, the problem with this is that Imperial over-stretch is almost certainly going to be the result - all that non-productive territory needs to be garrisoned, those forts need to be built, and so on. And someone needs to pay for it all. Which in turn could lead either to the Empire collapsing as a result of its over-stretch, or to it delaying that over-stretch by encouraging the development of valuable industries in the conquered territories... which, if done so that it actually works means that they then have to expand into a new (generally even larger) useless buffer area, with more forts and troops... so it realy is a self-feeding cycle.

Hm... those are just my thoughts. What do you make of them? :)
 
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