AH Challenge: Universalist Denominations dominant by 2100

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Hillary Clinton narrowly loses the 2008 election in a much disputed upset to Jeb Bush. The US government falls ever more under the thrall of Evangelical religion, as in American Theocracy

By 2010 the financial policies dictated by this are beginning to have a baleful effect. There is widespread unemployment and decline of all indicators harbinging a coming depression. Bush declares war after preemptive strikes against Iran's atomic industry fail and are met by raids into a still occupied Iraq. Many see this as an attempt to revive the economy, but it fails at both objectives.

By 2012 the US is in a full blown depression and taking casualties of nearly 500 a week in a Middle East war that has grown to include Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon and Kashmir. The draft has been reinstated and protests are nearly as much a part of US campus life as in 1969.

When Bush, with a 19% approval rate, is still reelected in a contest where irregularities are blatant and widespread there are riots in most major cities. Bush declares martial law and mass arrests of dissidents follow.

Only the Evangelical Universalists offer the slightest help or hope to the thousands in long breadlines that increase throughout Bush's second term. Only these dare to make any sort of protest against continued war, economic bumbling and oppression of the suffering, since as Evangelical Christians, they are in the one sacrosanct group left in America.

Throughout all this, majority Evangelical churches both strongly support the Government and turn a blind eye to the suffering of the economically dispossessed, many saying these are the tribulations of the end times and that the thousands of poor and starving are deserving sinners. Far from helping, they campaign for ever stricter bankruptcy and credit laws, urging the return of workhouses and debtor's prison.

With Bush's cancellation of the 2016 elections the country explodes into a full scale revolt. This is ruthlessly suppressed, and when the new mass arrests include the leaders of the Evangelical Universalists the movement goes underground.

To be continued

Please comment, thanks very much.
 

Glen

Moderator
NapoleonXIV said:
Hillary Clinton narrowly loses the 2008 election in a much disputed upset to Jeb Bush. The US government falls ever more under the thrall of Evangelical religion, as in American Theocracy

By 2010 the financial policies dictated by this are beginning to have a baleful effect. There is widespread unemployment and decline of all indicators harbinging a coming depression. Bush declares war after preemptive strikes against Iran's atomic industry fail and are met by raids into a still occupied Iraq. Many see this as an attempt to revive the economy, but it fails at both objectives.

By 2012 the US is in a full blown depression and taking casualties of nearly 500 a week in a Middle East war that has grown to include Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon and Kashmir. The draft has been reinstated and protests are nearly as much a part of US campus life as in 1969.

When Bush, with a 19% approval rate, is still reelected in a contest where irregularities are blatant and widespread there are riots in most major cities. Bush declares martial law and mass arrests of dissidents follow.

Only the Evangelical Universalists offer the slightest help or hope to the thousands in long breadlines that increase throughout Bush's second term. Only these dare to make any sort of protest against continued war, economic bumbling and oppression of the suffering, since as Evangelical Christians, they are in the one sacrosanct group left in America.

Throughout all this, majority Evangelical churches both strongly support the Government and turn a blind eye to the suffering of the economically dispossessed, many saying these are the tribulations of the end times and that the thousands of poor and starving are deserving sinners. Far from helping, they campaign for ever stricter bankruptcy and credit laws, urging the return of workhouses and debtor's prison.

With Bush's cancellation of the 2016 elections the country explodes into a full scale revolt. This is ruthlessly suppressed, and when the new mass arrests include the leaders of the Evangelical Universalists the movement goes underground.

To be continued

Please comment, thanks very much.

Interesting take, and surprising that you are starting with a modern POD!

I personally believe that Jeb won't run in '08, though perhaps the one person he would have a chance against is Hilary (my premise is that the country is a bit fatigued on legacies at present, so having two families meet nullifies that).

Jeb is not his brother, though, and I don't think you would see the same type of presidency from him (btw, I live in Florida where Jeb is Governor). While it is not so much of a stretch to imagine the war expanding, I think you are mistaken in thinking in the short term this would be bad for the US. We've already shown we're a lot better at winning the war than winning the peace. I also don't think you'd have a blatant crooked election nor the repression you suggest.

So for me, I don't agree with the base conditions...but what they heck, never let that get in the way of what IS a very interesting take on how to do this. So I'll suspend my disbelief for a bit and say carry on! I want to see where your dystopia is leading!
 
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Hm, lets see, boiling it down from the Wikipedia, Universalism is simply the doctrine that all will be saved.

For one thing, let's have a more radical Second Vatican Council that abolishes hell, and merges it with Purgatory- there has been some talk of it in some of the most liberal Catholic circles, I believe. If we can "Universalize" Catholicism, that's around 16% of the world already...
 

Glen

Moderator
Imajin said:
Hm, lets see, boiling it down from the Wikipedia, Universalism is simply the doctrine that all will be saved.

For one thing, let's have a more radical Second Vatican Council that abolishes hell, and merges it with Purgatory- there has been some talk of it in some of the most liberal Catholic circles, I believe. If we can "Universalize" Catholicism, that's around 16% of the world already...

Ah, I was wondering if someone might suggest a 'Universalist Catholicism' as part of this...please do continue. How do you get such a direction to the Second Vatican Council?
 
As a sketch of an idea: after some nasty religious violence among Evangelical groups in the 1880s, the 1st Amendment is reinterpreted as, "No one has the right to interfere in another's religion," and Congress passes a series of acts that ban evangelical activity and make it a heightened crime to commit violence in the name of God. UU's see a huge upshoot in membership, as they were the only religion that spoke out against this whole missionizing business before the religious riots broke out. People realize that as UU's, they can basically believe what they want, and soon everyone becomes a UU so that they can experience "freedom" from their old church.
 

Glen

Moderator
Tom Veil said:
As a sketch of an idea: after some nasty religious violence among Evangelical groups in the 1880s, the 1st Amendment is reinterpreted as, "No one has the right to interfere in another's religion," and Congress passes a series of acts that ban evangelical activity and make it a heightened crime to commit violence in the name of God. UU's see a huge upshoot in membership, as they were the only religion that spoke out against this whole missionizing business before the religious riots broke out. People realize that as UU's, they can basically believe what they want, and soon everyone becomes a UU so that they can experience "freedom" from their old church.

UUs didn't form until the mid 20th century as that group, so with a POD in the 1880s, unlikely.

A bit of a low probability that this POD really benefits Universalism over other, less aggressive, forms of religion.

But good thoughts, nonetheless...
 
Perhaps science advances to such a point that keeping people alive indefinitely becomes possible. This would be a significant blow to the concept of eternal punishment/reward for sins/virtue central to many faiths, and to get more people to accept death the world's major religions move toward a more universalist perspective. That seems like a good start toward full universalism by the end of the century.
 

Glen

Moderator
Imperator said:
Perhaps science advances to such a point that keeping people alive indefinitely becomes possible. This would be a significant blow to the concept of eternal punishment/reward for sins/virtue central to many faiths, and to get more people to accept death the world's major religions move toward a more universalist perspective. That seems like a good start toward full universalism by the end of the century.

Hmmmm....interesting take. Alive indefinitely by 2100 may be a bit ambitious, however. But if it went further, I think that could be a possibility.
 
Empty Hell

A sort of oblique approach to this would be to have the theology of Hans Urs von Balthasar catch more in all its aspects. He had an approach to Hell that said as a Christian he could not discount the possibility of damnation but he could and did hope that everyone would be saved. It was this belief that got him in trouble with Ottaviani. Otherwise von Balthasar's brand of New Theology was of the more conservative variety.

HUvB tried to engage his near neighbor Karl Barth in a dialog OTL but got essentially a polite rebuff. Perhaps Barth in an altverse engages in the dialog and is persuaded by the argument about Hell (admittedly part two of that compound statement is a bit out of character)
 
Simple, in the early days of Christianity the majority of the theological schools did teach Universalism including the Church Fathers such as Saint Clement of Alexendria and Origen. Have that theological branch remain dominant when the Roman Empire begins tolerating Christianity and than have Rome survive and conquer the world and voila: Universalist-dominant Christianity and world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism

In the first five or six centuries of Christian history, the majority of theological schools in the East taught Universalism.[8] The most important such school was the Didascalium in Alexandria, Egypt, which was founded by Saint Pantaenus ca. 190 C.E.[9] Alexandria was the center of learning and intellectual discourse in the ancient Mediterranean world, and was the theological center of gravity of Christianity prior to the rise of the imperial Roman Church.[10] Alexandrian Christianity emphasized apocatastasis and theosis as its main teachings.
Saint Clement of Alexandria succeeded Pantaenus as the second head of the Didascalium in the late 2nd century. He was a prolific writer who combined Bible scholarship with Greek philosophy to present a systematic theology based on Christian Universalist beliefs.[11]
Origen was the student and successor of Clement of Alexandria. This 3rd century theologian is generally regarded as the most significant of all the ancient teachers of Christian Universalism. He wrote over 6,000 works including commentaries on almost every book of the Bible, sermons, treatises, letters, apologies, and the Hexapla, a scholarly translation of the Old Testament.[12]
Saint Gregory of Nyssa and Saint Macrina the Younger, who were brother and sister, were both prominent Christian Universalists of the 4th century in the Alexandrian tradition of Clement and Origen.[13][14] Gregory of Nyssa was a bishop and theologian. Macrina the Younger was the leader of a convent of nuns.
Another branch of Christian Universalism in the ancient church, separate from the Alexandria school, was the Nestorian movement which later became the Assyrian Church of the East. Nestorianism originated in the 5th century in Constantinople and Antioch. Theodore of Mopsuestia was an influential bishop who introduced universal reconciliation into the liturgy of the Nestorians, and who is still honored in the Nestorian tradition as the "Interpreter" of the faith.[15]
 
I once found a "Trinitarian Universalist" web-site (www.tentmaker.org) and I expected it to be a bunch of wishy-washy stuff people believed because that's what they wanted to believe.

Wrong. Their biblical arguments were surprisingly good.

Thing is, there's the issue of "what if we're wrong"?

If the TUs are wrong, they might well have misled people into potentially-terminal error. If the Christians who believe in Hell are wrong, the potential for damage is much less--after all, even people who are alienated from Christianity by the teaching of Hell will be saved eventually.

That might be a deterrent to a widespread acceptance of univeralism among Christians.
 

Glen

Moderator
A sort of oblique approach to this would be to have the theology of Hans Urs von Balthasar catch more in all its aspects. He had an approach to Hell that said as a Christian he could not discount the possibility of damnation but he could and did hope that everyone would be saved. It was this belief that got him in trouble with Ottaviani. Otherwise von Balthasar's brand of New Theology was of the more conservative variety.

HUvB tried to engage his near neighbor Karl Barth in a dialog OTL but got essentially a polite rebuff. Perhaps Barth in an altverse engages in the dialog and is persuaded by the argument about Hell (admittedly part two of that compound statement is a bit out of character)

It's an interesting POD, but not certain its enough.
 

Glen

Moderator
Simple, in the early days of Christianity the majority of the theological schools did teach Universalism including the Church Fathers such as Saint Clement of Alexendria and Origen. Have that theological branch remain dominant when the Roman Empire begins tolerating Christianity and than have Rome survive and conquer the world and voila: Universalist-dominant Christianity and world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism

Nice, though that would also equal very different timeline in general, due to butterflies if for no other reason. Still, I believe it meets the requirements of the challenge.
 

Glen

Moderator
I once found a "Trinitarian Universalist" web-site (www.tentmaker.org) and I expected it to be a bunch of wishy-washy stuff people believed because that's what they wanted to believe.

Wrong. Their biblical arguments were surprisingly good.

Thing is, there's the issue of "what if we're wrong"?

If the TUs are wrong, they might well have misled people into potentially-terminal error. If the Christians who believe in Hell are wrong, the potential for damage is much less--after all, even people who are alienated from Christianity by the teaching of Hell will be saved eventually.

That might be a deterrent to a widespread acceptance of univeralism among Christians.

That sort of reasoning only works if it is an either or dichotomy, but the fact of the matter is that there are several different denominations and of course different religions setting different requirements for 'salvation' that if you believe in one of them and its one of the others' that is right then you're still damned, as it were. So you're just as likely to be saved or damned believing in Universalism as any other creed.
 
That sort of reasoning only works if it is an either or dichotomy, but the fact of the matter is that there are several different denominations and of course different religions setting different requirements for 'salvation' that if you believe in one of them and its one of the others' that is right then you're still damned, as it were. So you're just as likely to be saved or damned believing in Universalism as any other creed.

This is for the purposes of universalism and non-universalism within Christianity.

If universalism is correct, then the other issues within Christianity--faith vs. works, baptism, etc--are less of a big deal.
 

Glen

Moderator
This is for the purposes of universalism and non-universalism within Christianity.

If universalism is correct, then the other issues within Christianity--faith vs. works, baptism, etc--are less of a big deal.

I was thinking Christian, yes, though I'd be open to other religions with a Universalist doctrine if it becomes the dominant world religion by 2100.
 
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