AH Challenge: The Sun Never Sets on the Spanish Empire

[SilverPhantom2]

^^ Well you seem to be suggesting that social forces are unchanging.

Things like public policy, a misaligning of events (such as shifting the date for the invasion of England by a week or so), or a turn of good fortune in the political, military, or economic realms could EASILY sway social forces in favor of Spain.

You seem to be saying that social forces are one in the same throughout history and cannot be changed... which completely negates the concept of Alternate History.

To make Spain a superpower in the 18th, 19th and even 20th Centuries, you'd need two things:

1. A new bloodline for the Royal Family that's not self-destructive

2. Fix the problem of Spain's workforce in the Americas

Face it, Spain's most valuable resource in the New World was the Indian slaves. Sure, there's smallpox that wips out a lot of them, but you could perhaps get a new Catholic sect of Christianity that promotes charity towards the converted souls.

IMO, it's ASB to get Spain to become Protestant, but look at the Jesuits: Spain was a hotbed for new Catholic sects. With a POD of a Spanish monk receiving a revelation, or divine inspiration, this could easily happen. Once Spain's workforce is secured, put a few butterflies in place, get Don Juan into the line of succession, and then give him a non-Hapsburg bride.

Everything that follows could be easily accomplished: not fighting European wars as much, or at least, different alliances and games played, not attacking England in Europe and just duking it out in the New World and on the Atlantic, further expansion in Asia, the Americas, and perhaps Africa (Spanish Australia?).

 

[RadishPumpkinsForever]

First Ever post, so be gentle.

I would say that the cooler heads in the Spanish establishment prevailed and the Inquisition never happened. This would have allowed for several things. First Spain would have been able to develop a better financial base as one of the major sectors hit by the Inquisition was banking. The mass expulsion of Jews and Muslims crippled zygotic Spanish financing.

It would have also created the needed minorities to properly colinize the New World.

 

[adrian101a]

reply

of course im not saying social forces never change
THERE WOULD BE NO HISTORY WITHOUT THEM
if you read what i say im point to the way that changing social forces
make the dutch and english mercantile class vastly more productive than in spain
there are deep cultural and social reasons why the industrial revolution doesnt occur in spain
and you cant get round the fact that the IR radically alters the quantity and quality of the productive
its childish and banal to say well if they had a diffent king, if the king had a different idea
this site is full of mickey mouse understandings of history
HOW is spain gonna do it
you cant just say well if the king does this, or if they avoided the religious wars
HOW was spain gonna avoid the religious wars
HOW was it going to develop commerce in its colonies ( in the way the english and dutch ) did
the reformation ws hugely important for freeing commerce from church influence
etc etc etc
you cant just say supposse they just conquer the world
there are always counter veiling tendencies to evey action, every action creates an equal and oppossite reaction
simply saying with cooler heads the inquisition wouldnt have happened
there were huge social forces at work pushing spain to defend the position of the established church
to suggest it was just a few people who got carried away is ridiculous


in fact im leavin this site
when i joined i expected serious discussion and knowledge
but its just glib fantasies without any reference to reality
im sure its a bunch of brats who have no sense of the world around them
you cant just do what you want
life isnt like that
history isnt as simple as saying
if the king was wiser etc

 

[Tocomocho]

in fact im leavin this site
when i joined i expected serious discussion and knowledge
but its just glib fantasies without any reference to reality
im sure its a bunch of brats who have no sense of the world around them
you cant just do what you want
life isnt like that
history isnt as simple as saying
if the king was wiser etc

Close the door when you're out. This site doesn't need 10 year old fanatics who aren't able to maintain an adult debate.

 

[adrian101a]

reply

well what a grown up response that is
it wouldnt surprise me if you were some stupid fat kid with nothin better to do in the school holidays than this, only breakin when mommy brings you a cup of tea

 

[Tocomocho]

well what a grown up response that is
it wouldnt surprise me if you were some stupid fat kid with nothin better to do in the school holidays than this, only breakin when mommy brings you a cup of tea

*yawn*

You aren't even funny kid.

 

[Northstar]

Come on people don't argue. We all know the reason that Spain wasn't as good as England was a firm upper lip!

 

[Goldstein]

First Ever post, so be gentle.

I would say that the cooler heads in the Spanish establishment prevailed and the Inquisition never happened. This would have allowed for several things. First Spain would have been able to develop a better financial base as one of the major sectors hit by the Inquisition was banking. The mass expulsion of Jews and Muslims crippled zygotic Spanish financing.

It would have also created the needed minorities to properly colinize the New World.

Welcome to the board.

I agree with you, except for that I think that avoiding the Inquisition wouldn't necesarily avoid the expulsion of the Jews and Muslims, as it was a result of the Spanish kings' desire of religious homogeneity. Also, avoiding the Inquisition is a very, very difficult challenge (you would have to wipe the Cathars out of history first, for example).
However, is conceivable to avoid the expulsion of the Jews and Muslims without neccesarily wiping out the Inquisition, if the cooler heads prevailed in the right moment, as you say.

 

[Goldstein]

Come on people don't argue. We all know the reason that Spain wasn't as good as England was a firm upper lip!

Huh?

 

[SilverPhantom2]

I could see the Inquisition working in favor of Spain both ways. Of course, instead of completely eliminating it altogether, you could just have the Spanish declare the Iberian and their Caribbean colonies "sanctified" or something like that, and must only be for good, Catholic citizens.

Spanish Jews, Muslims, and the occaisional Protestant, who still want to live in Spain can make their way in the new world, adding to the depleted work force.

Somehow, I just don't see a lack of an Inquisition prompting like colonists to just go to the New World on a whim :-/

 

[Condottiero]

So many errors and stereotypes here...



adrian101a

you show no understanding of the historical forces at work
your reply is a distortion of facts, a misinterpretation of history and a glib
euphoric rant
the fact is that spainish society was backward compared to england and holland
you cant compare the economic / commercial developments with the backward plundering of spain of gold
for all the wealth they stole they had no mechanism for converting it into a modern bourgeoise society
you ignore how spain avoids the religious wars and suggest the portugese empire just lands in the lap of spain like a christmas present
life isnt like that
its a childish view of history that takes no account of the social forces involved
or the dialectical processes that led english commerce to be dominant world wide

Have you ever heard about the School of Salamanca (Austrian School of Economy on the XVI Century)? They talked about the value of the money before anyone in England or in the Netherlands even considered that! They studied the monetary depreciation caused by the flood of silver, banking issues, the ethics of lending...

What about the Controversial of Valladolid in 1555 and the Leyes de Burgos in 1510? Do you know that the spanish crown considered abandoning the Americas based on moral issues on the legitimacy of the conquest of the Indias (please look for Francisco de Vitoria relectios "De Indis" and "De Jure Belli").

Do you think really that the middle classes were so different in England and Spain?


SilverPhantom2

Face it, Spain's most valuable resource in the New World was the Indian slaves. Sure, there's smallpox that wips out a lot of them, but you could perhaps get a new Catholic sect of Christianity that promotes charity towards the converted souls.

I agree with most of your statements, but let's say it slowly: there were no Indian slaves in the Americas. In the first decades you had the Encomiendas where the situation of the Amerindians was almost of slavery. Then you have Las Casas, the relectios of Vitoria and the Controversial of Valladolid and the amerindians were subjects of the spanish crown with the same rights... with more rights than the europeans. The problem was that they suffered an economic oppresion, just like the european subjects of the spanish crown!

I repeat read about the controversial of Valladolid in 1555, you will have to look much later for something similar in a protestant country. There were protestant theologians in the late XVIII century that denied that amerindians had a soul!


RadishPumpkinsForever (welcome!)

First Ever post, so be gentle.

I would say that the cooler heads in the Spanish establishment prevailed and the Inquisition never happened. This would have allowed for several things. First Spain would have been able to develop a better financial base as one of the major sectors hit by the Inquisition was banking. The mass expulsion of Jews and Muslims crippled zygotic Spanish financing.

It would have also created the needed minorities to properly colinize the New World.

No Inquisition would mean the presence of reformed churches and potentially wars of religion. I do not see how it does help. The problem with the Inquisition was not religious, but that it was used by the crown as another force to project power.

Just consider the "Defensio Catholicae Fidae..." by Francisco Suarez in which he condemned tyrany and the claims of the English King (and all the absolut kings) of ruling by God's grace. It was burned in London, in Paris as something dangerous, but not in Spain! You may say but that was because it was probably very conservative and backwards... there are some authors that claim that Suarez's ideas are in Connecticut's Fundamental Orders the grand-mother of the US Constitution.


adrian101a

there are deep cultural and social reasons why the industrial revolution doesnt occur in spain

They were very close, some authors claim that Blasco de Garay's ship was steam propelled (1543), but that is not sure. It is Jeronimo de Ayanz machine that was used to remove water from mines in 1607! Just remove the financial presures of the TYW and you may have it.

HOW was it going to develop commerce in its colonies ( in the way the english and dutch ) did
the reformation ws hugely important for freeing commerce from church influence

They did, why do you think the English tried to break the spanish Monopoly in Central and South America? There was a trade that was free from the Church (although not from their kings that needed silver to pay the armies in Europe).

there were huge social forces at work pushing spain to defend the position of the established church
to suggest it was just a few people who got carried away is ridiculous

Just like in England, Switzerland, Germany and Sweden? Please look for the numbers of people killed by the Spanish Inquisition and the numbers of witches burned in Switzerland.

in fact im leavin this site
when i joined i expected serious discussion and knowledge
but its just glib fantasies without any reference to reality
im sure its a bunch of brats who have no sense of the world around them
you cant just do what you want
life isnt like that
history isnt as simple as saying
if the king was wiser etc

I can't believe it! It was just a little kid!

 

[Condottiero]

(you would have to wipe the Cathars out of history first, for example).

Different Inquisitions. Moreover you would end up with a different religious tribunal like in Switzerland or just angry mobs manipulated by politicians like in France or England.

It is not that easy.

 

[SilverPhantom2]

SilverPhantom2


I agree with most of your statements, but let's say it slowly: there were no Indian slaves in the Americas. In the first decades you had the Encomiendas where the situation of the Amerindians was almost of slavery. Then you have Las Casas, the relectios of Vitoria and the Controversial of Valladolid and the amerindians were subjects of the spanish crown with the same rights... with more rights than the europeans. The problem was that they suffered an economic oppresion, just like the european subjects of the spanish crown!

I repeat read about the controversial of Valladolid in 1555, you will have to look much later for something similar in a protestant country. There were protestant theologians in the late XVIII century that denied that amerindians had a soul!

All very enlightening. I'll definitely be sure to check out those documents. In AH, the Spanish Empire tends to be my area of interest.

Have to say though, wouldn't you agree that the Spanish racial and religious prejudice agains the Amerindians was a little harsh compared to the treatment of their own people in Iberia. Well maybe not, but I dont have time since the period is about to end

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Have to say though, wouldn't you agree that the Spanish racial and religious prejudice agains the Amerindians was a little harsh compared to the treatment of their own people in Iberia. Well maybe not, but I dont have time since the period is about to end

Ever wondered why there are so many mulattos in former spanish colonies while there are almost none in former british, dutch or french colonies? Or why indians are a large percentage of the population in Ecuador or Peru while the few remaining indians in the US live in reservations?

 

[maverick]

I think we can all say thanks to the English and the Leyenda Negra for the anti-Spanish stereotypes in the anglo-Saxon world...

And people think that Hollywood was the first to massively distort history for little reason whatsoever...

 

[Condottiero]

All very enlightening. I'll definitely be sure to check out those documents. In AH, the Spanish Empire tends to be my area of interest.

Have to say though, wouldn't you agree that the Spanish racial and religious prejudice agains the Amerindians was a little harsh compared to the treatment of their own people in Iberia. Well maybe not, but I dont have time since the period is about to end

I have lot's of reviews in my computer, I'll check for the sources and I promise to post the links (maybe it takes me a bit long, so you are allowed to remind me). The XVI and XVII were two of my favourites centuries but when I discovered these thinkers of the School of Salamanca I absolutely fell in love (it seems that Galileo's studies on the accelerated movement were just a development of Domingo de Soto's works!).

 

[Big Tex]

of course im not saying social forces never change
THERE WOULD BE NO HISTORY WITHOUT THEM
if you read what i say im point to the way that changing social forces
make the dutch and english mercantile class vastly more productive than in spain
there are deep cultural and social reasons why the industrial revolution doesnt occur in spain
and you cant get round the fact that the IR radically alters the quantity and quality of the productive
its childish and banal to say well if they had a diffent king, if the king had a different idea
this site is full of mickey mouse understandings of history
HOW is spain gonna do it
you cant just say well if the king does this, or if they avoided the religious wars
HOW was spain gonna avoid the religious wars
HOW was it going to develop commerce in its colonies ( in the way the english and dutch ) did
the reformation ws hugely important for freeing commerce from church influence
etc etc etc
you cant just say supposse they just conquer the world
there are always counter veiling tendencies to evey action, every action creates an equal and oppossite reaction
simply saying with cooler heads the inquisition wouldnt have happened
there were huge social forces at work pushing spain to defend the position of the established church
to suggest it was just a few people who got carried away is ridiculous


in fact im leavin this site
when i joined i expected serious discussion and knowledge
but its just glib fantasies without any reference to reality
im sure its a bunch of brats who have no sense of the world around them
you cant just do what you want
life isnt like that
history isnt as simple as saying
if the king was wiser etc

And thus when all the odds were against it, the long dead Spanish Empire still, somehow, managed to ruin someone's day

 

[Condottiero]

Most of what I had was in Spanish but you have:


In English

On the School of Salamanca: http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/schools/salamanca.htm
Economic theories: http://www.economictheories.org/2008/08/school-of-salamanca-middle-years.html
Domingo de Soto and Galileo: http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...5261583359.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=805892
Political theory: http://www.catholicsocialscientists.org/cssrIX/Article--Fastiggi.pdf
On Luis de Molina: http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/molina.htm
Business Ethics: http://www.springerlink.com/content/q3351820k1475247/
Human Rights: http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/6/3/4/8/pages63481/p63481-1.php
The 1550 Controversy: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2508897
Impact of the Controversy: http://www.casahistoria.net/japanchristaincentury.pdf
De Indis et de Iure Belli Relectiones: http://www.constitution.org/victoria/victoria_.htm


In Spanish

Jeronimo de Ayanz and his steam machine: http://www1.us.es/pautadatos/publico/personal/pdi/1555/2214/vaporyAyanz.pdf
Liberal thinking: http://www.hacer.org/pdf/Termes00.pdf
Domingo de Soto and Galileo: http://www.aceprensa.com/articulos/1994/feb/02/la-herencia-que-recibi-galileo/
Science and Engineering: http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=123123
Taxes: http://descargas.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/01604529325693902900035/023661.pdf?incr=1
Francisco de Suarez and the Fundamental Orders: http://web.iese.edu/RTermes/acer/acer275.htm

 

[Goldstein]

Different Inquisitions..

The very idea of an Inquisition. If you have an easier way of ending with the 13th century Aragonese Inquisition, I want to hear it.

you would end up with a different religious tribunal like in Switzerland or just angry mobs manipulated by politicians like in France or England.

I was only speculating about how to vanish the Inquisition, not saying that the effects of vanishing the Inquisition were related with this challenge. In fact, I was saying the opposite, and I agree completely with you in that point. I really don't understand your objection.

 

[Sam]

what are ye babblin' 'bout lad? Business minded? Spain viewed the entire colonial enterprise as a source of revenue - hard to be more business minded then that.

I broadly agree with your post, but I thought I'd quibble with this bit. Being focused on extracting reventue isn't the most business-minded approach a government can take.

This paper, for example, shows the negative effects of heavy taxes on city formation - and, by extension, economic activity - in Europe. Which ties in with the subject of this thread.