AH challenge: the St. Lawrence border

Threads about the USA conquering or buying the whole of Canada always seem to infuriate Canadians and delight Americans... so, let's consider a lesser scenario. When you look at a map of N. America, chunks of Canada sit rather weirdly south of the St. Lawrence River, which seems to be a much more likely natural border. So... how do we get the US to control this chunk of Canada (everything south of the St. Lawrence, Brunswick, and Nova Scotia), with the St. Lawrence being the boundary between the US and Canada? My best guess is having the US do much better in the ARW and War of 1812, but maybe someone else has a better idea...
 
Threads about the USA conquering or buying the whole of Canada always seem to infuriate Canadians and delight Americans... so, let's consider a lesser scenario. When you look at a map of N. America, chunks of Canada sit rather weirdly south of the St. Lawrence River, which seems to be a much more likely natural border. So... how do we get the US to control this chunk of Canada (everything south of the St. Lawrence, Brunswick, and Nova Scotia), with the St. Lawrence being the boundary between the US and Canada? My best guess is having the US do much better in the ARW and War of 1812, but maybe someone else has a better idea...

What? No, the St Lawrence is the major access way much as the Mississippi is further south, splitting the valley is really dumb, not to mention there are some quite rugged mountains to the south that serve as perfectly adequate borders.
 
What? No, the St Lawrence is the major access way much as the Mississippi is further south, splitting the valley is really dumb, not to mention there are some quite rugged mountains to the south that serve as perfectly adequate borders.

1) the entire valley is wide open to the RN, which can hit ANYWHERE the sea washes the shore.

2) the entire valley is filled with either Quebecois or United Empire Loyalists. If you can conquer/win over them, why not take all of Canada?


Not quite ASB, but REALLY low probability.
 
What? No, the St Lawrence is the major access way much as the Mississippi is further south, splitting the valley is really dumb, not to mention there are some quite rugged mountains to the south that serve as perfectly adequate borders.
I dunno, from Montreal south to the New York border it's fairly flat terrain.
 
Without the St. Lawrence Canada might as well not exist. That river is the country's lifeline to the Atlantic. It's therefore not strange to me Canada has part of the St. Lawrence to itself. It's actually strange to me that Maine is not part of Canada, and was instead a non-contigious territory of Massachusettes rather than an American state.
 

Thande

Donor
Doesn't make sense. Reminds me of the period when the Thames was a border between Wessex and Mercia: it cut London in half and the city fell into decay in that period. Canada's not sustainable if you cut Montreal and Quebec City in two.
 
In addition, the Southern bank of the Saint Lawrence in Quebec today is far, far more populated than the northern bank. Look on a topographic map, and you'll see on the northern side the valley ends much more quickly - less good farmland.

Honestly, whenever I see a map with the Saint Lawrence as the border of the U.S., it makes me think the mapmaker is lazy and doesn't know anything about Canada. Rivers often form the borders of U.S. states because borders between states don't need to be defensible, and because they can form one contiguous cultural sphere despite the state border.

However, rivers are seldom international boundaries, especially in long-settled areas. Look at Europe. Only small bits of the Rhine, Danube, and Oder are international borders, and in essentially all cases these borders only formed within the last 150 years or so, have little to do with cultural geography, and often involved either forced assimilation or population exchanges.

As others have said, if Britain cedes Quebec south of the Saint Lawrence, they might as well give it all up. And neither side of the border will be very secure, since either the U.S. or the U.K. could send warships up the river and fire cannon with impunity. I could see the U.S. gaining the Eastern Townships, but that's about it.
 
I dunno, from Montreal south to the New York border it's fairly flat terrain.

Because the dividing mountains are on the New York side of the border - the Adirondaks, which remain one of the wildest parts of the USA despite being in the same state as the biggest metropolis.

The best possible POD here is when the borders were set, following the 7 years' war. The northern tier of colonies wanted their borders extended to the St. Lawrence, and the king said no, because of the various French speaking persons inhabiting the area. A different king or a different set of political priorities could result in NY, NH, and Mass/Maine extending northwards to the south bank. But as stated, those new areas would be very hard for the colonies to administer because of the mountains. But they could certainly try. Connecticut did, after all, more or less administrate a large part of Ohio for over a decade.

And yes, I have been reading How the States Got their Shapes.
 
Doesn't make sense. Reminds me of the period when the Thames was a border between Wessex and Mercia: it cut London in half and the city fell into decay in that period. Canada's not sustainable if you cut Montreal and Quebec City in two.
Then have the city grow on just one side. Or split it into two separate cities.
 
Without the St. Lawrence Canada might as well not exist. That river is the country's lifeline to the Atlantic. It's therefore not strange to me Canada has part of the St. Lawrence to itself. It's actually strange to me that Maine is not part of Canada, and was instead a non-contigious territory of Massachusettes rather than an American state.

Thank the colonial charters, not geography. ;)
 
Doesn't make sense. Reminds me of the period when the Thames was a border between Wessex and Mercia: it cut London in half and the city fell into decay in that period. Canada's not sustainable if you cut Montreal and Quebec City in two.

Um Thande, Montreal and Quebec City are on the same side of the St. Lawrence.
 
Without the St. Lawrence Canada might as well not exist. That river is the country's lifeline to the Atlantic. It's therefore not strange to me Canada has part of the St. Lawrence to itself. It's actually strange to me that Maine is not part of Canada, and was instead a non-contigious territory of Massachusettes rather than an American state.
Actually, Maine is a FUN Example ...

Of Just What Happens, When a Colony Does as it's Told!

You See, Originally The Crown Colony of New Hampshire was a TINY Lil' Strip of Land in between The Merrimack River and The Sea ...

Until George II Came Along, And Decided a Close Border-Dispute Against those Already Rebellious Colonists of Massachusetts; Which Awarded His Loyal Subjects with All that Beautiful Territory South-East of The Connecticut River!

:eek:
 
The best way to defend a river is to control the opposite bank. The next stage is to defend a natural barrier that covers the river, hence the mountains to the south. Don’t give em up Georgie, stick to your guns!
 
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