AH Challenge: Swap French and German history

The title says it all.

How can a united Germany become a the dominant power on continental Europe and a succesful colonial empire builder during the 17th century? It would become the main rival of England/Britain across the world, whilst dominating its neighbours in Europe. After being on the recieving end of many wars and supporting the American rebels, Germany would undergo a liberal revolution, but later become an Empire ruled by a German 'Napoleon'.

France, on the other hand, is to be a collection of small states, ranging from Brittany and Aquitaine to small city states like Marseilles and Lyon. It would basicaly become the battlefield for Europan wars, with English, German and Spanish marching across it for centuries. However, later on it would unite as a single nation, but its sudden appearance would upset the balance of power in Europe.
 
One problem would be that more united Germany would be, well, quite a bit more powerful then united France was, probably (even more so since it would include the Netherlands, including what would become Belgium, and with the 30-years War removed, well, Elsass-Lothringen would be more Elsass-Lothringen and less Alsace-Lorraine).

There is also the fact that, without France, less Francification would occur...

Still, just because this France would be less powerful, and, even discounting colonial empires, smaller, then the OTL one, that doesn't mean that the Balance of Power wouldn't be disrupted...
 
no Otto the Great, so Germany never forms the HRE and stays as the Kingdom of Germany, united (and not breaking up into hundreds of tiny statelets). Because of German-West Frankish / French wars, France is not able to pull itself together in the next few centuries, leaving the various duchies, counties, etc, independent while nominally under French royal control. there you go, united Germany, divided France (and a united Italy to boot).
 
No Tours so the Muslims remain ensconced in S France. A Carolingian analogue empire forms with its main focus further West. The long term sees the West viewed as the marches, whilst the main kingdom remains focused in OTL Germany

Something like that...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
No Tours so the Muslims remain ensconced in S France. A Carolingian analogue empire forms with its main focus further West. The long term sees the West viewed as the marches, whilst the main kingdom remains focused in OTL Germany

Something like that...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Wasn't the Frankish Empire originally based in France? at least by the 8th century it was, I think.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Wasn't the Frankish Empire originally based in France? at least by the 8th century it was, I think.

It was original based in Belgium, the northwesten Rhineland and South Netherlands. by the 8th century it had spread out to most of westen Europe
 
by "no tours" do you mean that the Muslims win the battle? because there was bound to be a reaction to Arab incursions at some point.

Yeah, I meant "no Tours or equivalent" leaving a Muslim swathe of land across France - sure the Franks will try to stop them, will fight battles of the importance of Tours but just won't win them

At least not before the emergence of a Carolingian like empire based further East that sees the Western marches as the important ones to devote energy to, and sees the emergence of marcher lords in the West rather than the East

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
So a larger 'Reconquête'? Interesting.

Actually, this could play into long term effects. If Islam remains in Spain for longer, maybe it would have a greater cultural impact on Spanish and Portuguese culture.

Another possibility that I thought of last night, with no united France there is nothing that can force England out of Northern France. Although Spain would probably force the English out of Aquitaine, just imagine an English Empire stretching from Calais to Normandy, with a puppet kingdom in Brittany. This means that, although the navy will be important in its overall strategic plan, there is going to be a greater focus on the Army. Combine this with a stronger rival, Germany, and the colonial front will be more interesting. Although I would guess that England/Britain would still monopolise Australia, but in North America and India we might see a greater divide, like a German Kanada and southern India.

(and a united Italy to boot).
I am guessing the pun was not intended.
 
One problem would be that more united Germany would be, well, quite a bit more powerful then united France was, probably (even more so since it would include the Netherlands, including what would become Belgium, and with the 30-years War removed, well, Elsass-Lothringen would be more Elsass-Lothringen and less Alsace-Lorraine).

There is also the fact that, without France, less Francification would occur...

Still, just because this France would be less powerful, and, even discounting colonial empires, smaller, then the OTL one, that doesn't mean that the Balance of Power wouldn't be disrupted...


Depends how far back we go. Germany didn't used to go so far east. Its eastern border just ran around equal to the east of Denmark. Quite like West Germany actually....+Austria. And maybe the Netherlands whilst we're at it.

The key is for the west slavs to unite earlier.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Depends how far back we go. Germany didn't used to go so far east. Its eastern border just ran around equal to the east of Denmark. Quite like West Germany actually....+Austria. And maybe the Netherlands whilst we're at it.

The key is for the west slavs to unite earlier.

I find a Danish takeover of the Wends more likely, but it would serve the same purpose, with a strong Danish presence east of the Elb and continued effort from them to make these areas incorporated into a Danish state and out of the Germany, we could see a Germany which slowly become more centralised in a effort to drive them out and get a presence on the Baltic Sea, especially if the local German fiefs fail to drive the Danes out like they did in OTL.
 
Depends how far back we go. Germany didn't used to go so far east. Its eastern border just ran around equal to the east of Denmark. Quite like West Germany actually....+Austria. And maybe the Netherlands whilst we're at it.

The key is for the west slavs to unite earlier.
Perhaps more like BRD+Netherlands+Thuringia.
 
I find a Danish takeover of the Wends more likely, but it would serve the same purpose, with a strong Danish presence east of the Elb and continued effort from them to make these areas incorporated into a Danish state and out of the Germany, we could see a Germany which slowly become more centralised in a effort to drive them out and get a presence on the Baltic Sea, especially if the local German fiefs fail to drive the Danes out like they did in OTL.

Good idea.



I suppose it'd be best to leave the NL out of it- they used to stretch quite far to the west and south after all, well into NE France.
Germany would still be a bit big and powerful with this area included in it.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Good idea.



I suppose it'd be best to leave the NL out of it- they used to stretch quite far to the west and south after all, well into NE France.
Germany would still be a bit big and powerful with this area included in it.

Let the Dutch stay German but make Bavarians and Allemanians independent people if you feel Germany with the Low Lands becomes to big, it would make better sense.
 
Another possibility that I thought of last night, with no united France there is nothing that can force England out of Northern France.

I am guessing the pun was not intended.


with a disunited France it is possible that the English would never be in France at all. With no Carolingians to give Rollo his land in 911, the Vikings would continue to raid France, but no settled, Francified Normans, no William the Conquerer, etc.

yes, that was completely unintended. ;)
 
Has anybody addressed the problem of geography? OTL France is able to become a colonial power since she has direct access to the Atlantic, while Germany doesn't? How about France bordering fewer nations than Germany?
 
Has anybody addressed the problem of geography? OTL France is able to become a colonial power since she has direct access to the Atlantic, while Germany doesn't? How about France bordering fewer nations than Germany?
True, but the Dutch did not have a direct access to the Atlantic, and I can say with little doubt that their empires were fairly successful. Combine that with the economic powerhouse that a united Germany could be and they shouldn't have too much of a problem. Also a united Germany would be considerably stronger than France, and with only minor states in France and Italy, it would only have to worry about its Eastern frontier with Poland and to the North against Danes and Vikings.

However, this does give suggest that the French states could attempt to create colonies of their own. For example we can have Aquitanian trading posts on the American and West African coasts. Although I doubt they could maintain anything larger than that, Aquitain could become TTL analoug of the Dutch.

Depends how far back we go. Germany didn't used to go so far east. Its eastern border just ran around equal to the east of Denmark.
Didn't the Kingdom of Germany have claims on land all the way to the Oder. I doubt the Germans are going to let territory they claim is theirs fall to the Danes or Slavs without making a few noises.
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
Didn't the Kingdom of Germany have claims on land all the way to the Oder. I doubt the Germans are going to let territory they claim is theirs fall to the Danes or Slavs without making a few noises.

That more or less the point by trying to keep this area out of the Danes fithy hands:D they're going to centralise the power in the King/Emperors hands.
 
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