AH Challenge: Royal Navy Reigns Supreme

It was the UK which pushed for the Washington treaty as even in this period the British couldn't afford a naval building race with the USA.

redcoatT

There were elements in Britain that wanted an agreement to avoid either a naval race or a war. There were even more substantial elements in the US who wanted a deal because they knew the hostility of much of their electors to the existing USN programme.

More to the point, just because some British politicians wanted a naval treaty, one which the details of which the navy objected too strongly, doesn't mean they were right. I admit to having the advantage of hindsight but I would argue that, while nothing is certain with butterflies, Britain would have been better off without the treaty and especially with a continuation of the alliance with Japan.

Steve
 
No, seriosly, I recently took little time, and calculated.
With ONLY 3,5% of GDP for defense, UK could have Royal Navy as a second in world, with 5 carriers, 5 cruisres, 18 SSN, 18 destroyers...
;)

And a relativly strong Army and RAF too.

abc123

Missed this initially but interesting. I would prefer a few more DDs but that's a hell of a force compared to what we have now. Does the SSN's include any SSBNs?

Is that on basically OTL spending and organisation or presuming some clear out of the dead-wood and waste that infects Britain, both governmental and in our private 'industries'?

Steve
 

abc123

Banned
abc123

Missed this initially but interesting. I would prefer a few more DDs but that's a hell of a force compared to what we have now. Does the SSN's include any SSBNs?

Is that on basically OTL spending and organisation or presuming some clear out of the dead-wood and waste that infects Britain, both governmental and in our private 'industries'?

Steve

Well, I and a friend ( both fans of military stuff ) were working on a project of RN and a RAF for UK, with current GDP, and a 3,5 % defence spending. And it shows that UK has not enogug money, they have more than enough money.

SSN does not include 7 SSBN-s.

So:
- 5 70 000 tons aircraft carriers
- 6 15 000 tons light cruisers
- 18 Astute class SSN
- 7 Vanguard class SSBN
- 18 Arleigh Burke class destroyers
- 30 Valour class frigates
- 5 Mistral class LHD
- 10 Foudre class LPD
etc...

Perfectly possible.
If you dont trust me, do your math alone, so you will see.
;)
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Well, I and a friend ( both fans of military stuff ) were working on a project of RN and a RAF for UK, with current GDP, and a 3,5 % defence spending. And it shows that UK has not enogug money, they have more than enough money.

SSN does not include 7 SSBN-s.

So:
- 5 70 000 tons aircraft carriers
- 6 15 000 tons light cruisers
- 18 Astute class SSN
- 7 Vanguard class SSBN
- 18 Arleigh Burke class destroyers
- 30 Valour class frigates
- 5 Mistral class LHD
- 10 Foudre class LPD
etc...

Perfectly possible.
If you dont trust me, do your math alone, so you will see.
;)

Looks lovely (nowhere near hegemonic but still imposing; of course with that kind of buildup I suspect the other major powers would also ramp up), but do operating costs include costs to effectively operate bases and auxiliary naval services in your math? (Did you also sacrifice the army and airforce for that fleet? :p )
 

abc123

Banned
Looks lovely (nowhere near hegemonic but still imposing; of course with that kind of buildup I suspect the other major powers would also ramp up), but do operating costs include costs to effectively operate bases and auxiliary naval services in your math? (Did you also sacrifice the army and airforce for that fleet? :p )

Yes, evreything is more-less included, bases, operating expenses etc.

Army and RAF are OTL or even a slightly stronger than OTL.
;)

Just take this number: GDP of UK is about 2200 billion USD.
3,5% of that is about 77 billion USD of defense budget per year.
Let's say that for new equipment goes about 22% of 77 billions. That's about 17 billion USD per year. Lets multiply that with about 30 years of duration of equipment on average, that is about 510 billion USD for neq equipment.
Then you can calculate.
;)
 
5 70 000 tons aircraft carriers
- 6 15 000 tons light cruisers
- 18 Astute class SSN
- 7 Vanguard class SSBN
- 18 Arleigh Burke class destroyers
- 30 Valour class frigates
- 5 Mistral class LHD
- 10 Foudre class LPD

err a few points if I may. 70KT carriers-well nice but where to base and how to man them? That assumes a Fleet Air Arm with around 1000 aircraft (around 400 strike fighters would be needed, couple hundred trainers, 100 or so AEW and so on). Thats just not feasible-plus no port faciilities are currently big enough-however lets go with what you're working with.

Each Astute is around a billion plus and they take time to build and you've not shown the legacy systems either-in this navy you would have had around 14 Trafalgar class built in the 80s and 90s, perhaps a small batch of W class-these were the initially proposed and then cancelled subs replaced by the Astutes. You would also still have the Upholder class of SSK (12 were planned only 4 built and then sold to Canada).

Why build Arleigh Burkes? The Sampson radar is first class and the D class had they been given the Mk141 VLS (which they have scope for) would have further enhanced them possibly with Cruise and other systems), Valour frigates-fine ships for what they do-but NOT what the RN does, Foudre class-why? Even the Froggies are getting shot of them. Mistral class are sexy enough but I do wonder...


At its tech/strength peak in the 60s the RN had following:
2 Ark class fleet carriers (each with 12 Sea Vixen and 14 Buccaneer, 4 Gannet AEW, 1 Gannet COD, 6 helicopters)
2 Centaur class carriers (each with 9 Sea Vixen, 9 Buccaneer, 3 Gannet, 6 helicopters)
1 Victorious class (similiar to Centaur airgroup)
2 Commando carriers (Albion and Bulwark each with 20 helicopters and a RM Commando)

3 Tiger class cruisers (under mod to carry 4 helicopters)
several older armoured cruisers (by 1968 only Belfast left)
1 minelayer cruiser (Manxman)

100 escorts (County class are only ones with long range guided missiles -Sea Slug, rest have mainly gun and torpedo armament, plus Limbo AS mortars, Sea Cat SAM on many frigates), Leander class is building, Type 21 and 22 on drawing board with the cancelllation of the Type 19 frigate.

100 mine warfare-several converted to other uses such as survey and training.

2 brand new LPD's (Fearless and Intrepid)

6 brand new LSL's in the RFA (although operated for the Army)

6 Fleet submarines (Dreadnought, Valiant class (2 boats), Churchill class (3 boats) -Swiftsure class in drawing office.)

over 30 patrol submarines- Oberon class (newest and very capable boats), Porpoise class and the older A and T classes.

IF we had continued with that kind of level, and IF there had been no sterling crisis and IF there had been no problems such as Suez, Duncan Sandys and the Wilson government then lets assume RN in the 1980s could have been,

5x 50KT carriers (CVA01 and variants) each with up to 40 fixed wing strike fighters, half dozen helicopters.
6x15KT light ASW carriers (as was planned) each with up to a dozen helicopters-although with arms reduction from 1991 perhaps these get axed.
24 AD ships (call them destroyers or cruisers if you want) -mix of Type 43 and 44 ships that replaced the Bristol and County class ships.
70 plus AS and GP frigates (Type 22's, 23's and 24's)-with Defence cuts ineviatbly lose some of these
40 plus patrol and training vessels
50 plus MW vessels (Hunts, Sandowns and others)
40 subs (4 SSBN, 24 SSN (Swiftsures, Trafalgars, new Astutes, 12 SSK (Upholders)
3 commando carriers (enhanced Ocean style ships)
3 LPD's -the Albion class-very capable ships
6 LSD -the Bay class but given to the RN
20 plus survey ships and vessels

RM have 2 brigades (there were to have been 2 brigades and at one point we did have 5 RM commando units-41 Commando went in 1981-in my scenario there are 6 commandos, 2 HQ units, 2 assault regts, 2 logistics regts, and 95 Commando RA never went), SBS is also larger.

Fleet Air Arm operates 12 fast jet squadrons including training and trials units each with around 12-16 aircraft, training larger. also 4 fast jet trainer squadrons (as they had up to 1970), several AEW sqdns , several helicopter squadrons and the like. So thats around 140 Merlin ASW, 35 Merlin combat rescue (3 squadrons), 75 Merlin Commando (6 squadrons), 155 Lynx, 150 Sea Hawk (Hawk 100/T45 hybrid), 100 AEW, 300 strike fighter (Typhoon?), 100 other aircraft (basic trainers and utility types). (Oh and there's a heck of a problem crewing that lot)

RFA would need around 60 ships (1 air training, 4 casualty reception shios, 4 damage repair, 12 fleet tankers, 12 support tankers, 12 multi role cargo and tanker ships, 12 small fleet support ships, a good half dozen cargo ships)

My RN however does reasonably match what we did have in the 60s but with a quantum leap in capability.
 

abc123

Banned
5 70 000 tons aircraft carriers
- 6 15 000 tons light cruisers
- 18 Astute class SSN
- 7 Vanguard class SSBN
- 18 Arleigh Burke class destroyers
- 30 Valour class frigates
- 5 Mistral class LHD
- 10 Foudre class LPD

err a few points if I may. 70KT carriers-well nice but where to base and how to man them? That assumes a Fleet Air Arm with around 1000 aircraft (around 400 strike fighters would be needed, couple hundred trainers, 100 or so AEW and so on). Thats just not feasible-plus no port faciilities are currently big enough-however lets go with what you're working with.

Each Astute is around a billion plus and they take time to build and you've not shown the legacy systems either-in this navy you would have had around 14 Trafalgar class built in the 80s and 90s, perhaps a small batch of W class-these were the initially proposed and then cancelled subs replaced by the Astutes. You would also still have the Upholder class of SSK (12 were planned only 4 built and then sold to Canada).

Why build Arleigh Burkes? The Sampson radar is first class and the D class had they been given the Mk141 VLS (which they have scope for) would have further enhanced them possibly with Cruise and other systems), Valour frigates-fine ships for what they do-but NOT what the RN does, Foudre class-why? Even the Froggies are getting shot of them. Mistral class are sexy enough but I do wonder...


At its tech/strength peak in the 60s the RN had following:
2 Ark class fleet carriers (each with 12 Sea Vixen and 14 Buccaneer, 4 Gannet AEW, 1 Gannet COD, 6 helicopters)
2 Centaur class carriers (each with 9 Sea Vixen, 9 Buccaneer, 3 Gannet, 6 helicopters)
1 Victorious class (similiar to Centaur airgroup)
2 Commando carriers (Albion and Bulwark each with 20 helicopters and a RM Commando)

3 Tiger class cruisers (under mod to carry 4 helicopters)
several older armoured cruisers (by 1968 only Belfast left)
1 minelayer cruiser (Manxman)

100 escorts (County class are only ones with long range guided missiles -Sea Slug, rest have mainly gun and torpedo armament, plus Limbo AS mortars, Sea Cat SAM on many frigates), Leander class is building, Type 21 and 22 on drawing board with the cancelllation of the Type 19 frigate.

100 mine warfare-several converted to other uses such as survey and training.

2 brand new LPD's (Fearless and Intrepid)

6 brand new LSL's in the RFA (although operated for the Army)

6 Fleet submarines (Dreadnought, Valiant class (2 boats), Churchill class (3 boats) -Swiftsure class in drawing office.)

over 30 patrol submarines- Oberon class (newest and very capable boats), Porpoise class and the older A and T classes.

IF we had continued with that kind of level, and IF there had been no sterling crisis and IF there had been no problems such as Suez, Duncan Sandys and the Wilson government then lets assume RN in the 1980s could have been,

5x 50KT carriers (CVA01 and variants) each with up to 40 fixed wing strike fighters, half dozen helicopters.
6x15KT light ASW carriers (as was planned) each with up to a dozen helicopters-although with arms reduction from 1991 perhaps these get axed.
24 AD ships (call them destroyers or cruisers if you want) -mix of Type 43 and 44 ships that replaced the Bristol and County class ships.
70 plus AS and GP frigates (Type 22's, 23's and 24's)-with Defence cuts ineviatbly lose some of these
40 plus patrol and training vessels
50 plus MW vessels (Hunts, Sandowns and others)
40 subs (4 SSBN, 24 SSN (Swiftsures, Trafalgars, new Astutes, 12 SSK (Upholders)
3 commando carriers (enhanced Ocean style ships)
3 LPD's -the Albion class-very capable ships
6 LSD -the Bay class but given to the RN
20 plus survey ships and vessels

RM have 2 brigades (there were to have been 2 brigades and at one point we did have 5 RM commando units-41 Commando went in 1981-in my scenario there are 6 commandos, 2 HQ units, 2 assault regts, 2 logistics regts, and 95 Commando RA never went), SBS is also larger.

Fleet Air Arm operates 12 fast jet squadrons including training and trials units each with around 12-16 aircraft, training larger. also 4 fast jet trainer squadrons (as they had up to 1970), several AEW sqdns , several helicopter squadrons and the like. So thats around 140 Merlin ASW, 35 Merlin combat rescue (3 squadrons), 75 Merlin Commando (6 squadrons), 155 Lynx, 150 Sea Hawk (Hawk 100/T45 hybrid), 100 AEW, 300 strike fighter (Typhoon?), 100 other aircraft (basic trainers and utility types). (Oh and there's a heck of a problem crewing that lot)

RFA would need around 60 ships (1 air training, 4 casualty reception shios, 4 damage repair, 12 fleet tankers, 12 support tankers, 12 multi role cargo and tanker ships, 12 small fleet support ships, a good half dozen cargo ships)

My RN however does reasonably match what we did have in the 60s but with a quantum leap in capability.


Look, my English isn't good enough to debate here with you, but be sure, we counted evreything.
Example, we counted price of 1 Astute as 2 billions USD. We counted price of 1 CVN as 6 billion USD. We counted that one CBG has about 36- 48 fighter aircraft ( 100 millions USD per piece ), 4 AEW ( Hawkeye, 300 millions per piece ), 1 Greyhound and 3 ASW Merlin and 3 SAR Merlin.
;)
 
the trouble is that when you 'buy' an aircraft you aren't just acquiring an individual aircraft. You're also buying spare systems and engines, any training needed and lots of other infrastructure-thats why it always works out that US aircraft are cheaper as they get the economies of scale. This economy of scale is why the D class are as expensive as they are-and believe me they are world beating which is why I wouldn't bother with the Arleigh Burke class.
 

abc123

Banned
the trouble is that when you 'buy' an aircraft you aren't just acquiring an individual aircraft. You're also buying spare systems and engines, any training needed and lots of other infrastructure-thats why it always works out that US aircraft are cheaper as they get the economies of scale. This economy of scale is why the D class are as expensive as they are-and believe me they are world beating which is why I wouldn't bother with the Arleigh Burke class.

Sorry my friend, Daring class is not a world beater, except as a epic fail...

About aircraft, wich modern aircraft ( except 5. generation ) costs more than 100 milions USD with all the support needed?

F-18 E/F?
EF-2000?
Rafale?
Su-33?

And, if they ( UK aerospace industry ) can not make same fighter aircraft for FAA 8 about 250- 300 aircrafts ) and RAF ( about 250- 300 aircrafts ) with overall price lower than 100 million USD/piece, they should be closed, and Super Hornet ordered.
;)
 
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