Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to keep the Royal Navy (the British one) predominant on the world naval stage until at least the middle of the Cold War.
AH Challenge: RN Predominant
- Thread starter Hannibal.Caesar
- Start date
David S Poepoe
Banned
Realistically it is difficult, but not impossible. However, as mentioned, it would be hard for Britain to continue in first place following the Second World War since the terrific strain that occured upon its economy. That being said I would throw a few PODs that could, in some combination, work:
1. Canada, Australia-New Zealand really step up to the plate and provide financial aid for the Royal Navy from the early 1900s onward.
2a. HMAS Australia and HMNZS New Zealand are not ordered as part of the Indefatigable class armoured cruisers, but as part of the Lion class battlecruisers.
2b. Royal Navy retains control of the Royal Naval Air Service.
3. Canada builds three battleships at its shipyards based on the Queen Elizabeth class.
4. Anson, Rodney and Howe, formerly of the Admiral class battlecruisers, are completed as aircraft carriers in the 1920s.
5. Different form of the Washington Naval Treaty - same basic results, but the Dominions keep their capital ships. Britain scraps additional 13.5in gunned ships to compensate.
6. HMS Eagle and HMS Furious transfered to Royal Australian Navy. HMS Courageous transfered to Canada. New class of carriers drawn up without armoured decks.
7. The Ethiopian Crisis regarding Italy's invasion of Ethiopia. Britain closes the Suez Canal to Italian shipping. War of words with Mussolini reach boiling point and the RN launches air raid on Italian fleet in Taranto. Three Italian battleships sunk, chastized Mussolini negotiates armistice.
8. Development of new 16in gun given the go ahead in 1930. Resolution class battleships sold off and 15in guns retained.
9. The two London Treaties occur. Royal Navy orders the King George V class battleships (KGV and Prince of Wales) 12x14in guns.
10. Japan's withdrawal allows RN to apply escalation clause. Duke of York class (DoY, Jellicoe and Beatty) laid down 9x16in guns.
11. To strengthen the Far East Fleet the Vanguard class is laid down to make use of spare 15in guns. Vanguard built in Britain, but two ships laid down in Canada, two in Australia and new shipyard in India contribute additional two.
12. Royal Navy orders Lion class battleships (9x16in) on eve of the outbreak of World War. All to be completed in Canada.
13. Late 1941 the Far East Fleet is based around HMS Prince of Wales, HMS Repulse, HMAS Australia and HMNZS New Zealand (the last two modernized) and three carriers. Force Z intercepts Japanese troop transports on their way to Malaysia and decisively wreak havoc, tho they are forced to withdraw with heavy damage.
1. Canada, Australia-New Zealand really step up to the plate and provide financial aid for the Royal Navy from the early 1900s onward.
2a. HMAS Australia and HMNZS New Zealand are not ordered as part of the Indefatigable class armoured cruisers, but as part of the Lion class battlecruisers.
2b. Royal Navy retains control of the Royal Naval Air Service.
3. Canada builds three battleships at its shipyards based on the Queen Elizabeth class.
4. Anson, Rodney and Howe, formerly of the Admiral class battlecruisers, are completed as aircraft carriers in the 1920s.
5. Different form of the Washington Naval Treaty - same basic results, but the Dominions keep their capital ships. Britain scraps additional 13.5in gunned ships to compensate.
6. HMS Eagle and HMS Furious transfered to Royal Australian Navy. HMS Courageous transfered to Canada. New class of carriers drawn up without armoured decks.
7. The Ethiopian Crisis regarding Italy's invasion of Ethiopia. Britain closes the Suez Canal to Italian shipping. War of words with Mussolini reach boiling point and the RN launches air raid on Italian fleet in Taranto. Three Italian battleships sunk, chastized Mussolini negotiates armistice.
8. Development of new 16in gun given the go ahead in 1930. Resolution class battleships sold off and 15in guns retained.
9. The two London Treaties occur. Royal Navy orders the King George V class battleships (KGV and Prince of Wales) 12x14in guns.
10. Japan's withdrawal allows RN to apply escalation clause. Duke of York class (DoY, Jellicoe and Beatty) laid down 9x16in guns.
11. To strengthen the Far East Fleet the Vanguard class is laid down to make use of spare 15in guns. Vanguard built in Britain, but two ships laid down in Canada, two in Australia and new shipyard in India contribute additional two.
12. Royal Navy orders Lion class battleships (9x16in) on eve of the outbreak of World War. All to be completed in Canada.
13. Late 1941 the Far East Fleet is based around HMS Prince of Wales, HMS Repulse, HMAS Australia and HMNZS New Zealand (the last two modernized) and three carriers. Force Z intercepts Japanese troop transports on their way to Malaysia and decisively wreak havoc, tho they are forced to withdraw with heavy damage.
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The Empire has to survive. Even then its questionable, given the size of the USN post war.
What if we shrink the USN, then? Of course, to do that, you'll have to dramatically alter WW2, possibly eliminate Japan's role or the US involvement in the Pacific Front entirely... and then everything gets fouled up.
David S Poepoe
Banned
I would explore the possibility of the Commonwealth establishing its own sort of naval force. Granted one won't find Jamaica affording a nuclear submarine or aircraft carrier, but the white dominions banding together and a friendly India (united or divided) could provide a presence of sorts.
Retaining a base in Singapore, Hong Kong and Suez would be crucial. There being a reason to be 'East of Suez' gives the reason for a large fleet. However, its likely that by the mid-1950s all battleships will have been scrapped. Perhaps a two or three of the Vanguard class kept in mothballs (they were better seaboats than the Lions ever would have been) to be revived like the Iowa class. When Argentina invades the Falklands it is three carrier battle groups that are dispatched to the South Atlantic to set things straight (HMS Invincible, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Courageous).
I would consider tying in dominion status for India in the 1920s and domestic relations in South Africa working out far differently so that money and manpower may be tapped. Keeping the Great War, the Second World War as close to OTL in order to produce a Cold War mitigates any freezing of US naval strength and must reflect post-war economics to remain close and true.
The thread doesn't say who is in the 'cold war' i.e. the US may not be in it!!
Why can't you have a 'cold war' without WW2? Weren't Britain and Germany engaged in a kind of cold war in the years leading up to the First World War? Weren't Athens and Sparta engaged in a half-century long cold war before they actually clahed in the Peloponnesian War?
I agree that WW2 acted as a catalyst which propelled the Americans and Soviets on to the world stage. But perhaps this rivalry was inevitable? If WW2 did not occur, or was brief enough not to bankrupt the British Empire (hence allowing Great Britain maintain her naval prodominance for a while), then I really doubt this would have prevented the USSR and USA gaining more influence over world events. This process might have occurred more gradually and nuclear weapons might not appear until much later, but it would have happened.
So, we could have both a cold war scenario and a stronger Britain without a WW2.
I agree that WW2 acted as a catalyst which propelled the Americans and Soviets on to the world stage. But perhaps this rivalry was inevitable? If WW2 did not occur, or was brief enough not to bankrupt the British Empire (hence allowing Great Britain maintain her naval prodominance for a while), then I really doubt this would have prevented the USSR and USA gaining more influence over world events. This process might have occurred more gradually and nuclear weapons might not appear until much later, but it would have happened.
So, we could have both a cold war scenario and a stronger Britain without a WW2.
Germany wins WW1 and Britain is forced to keep it's navy and close to WW1 peak strength as possible, with large empire contributions. For example HMS Malaya, paid for by Malaya, was to be followed by 3 more paid for by Canada, and if Canada can afford 3 Australia can afford to pay for 2 and India for 2 or 3.
What we need, with post-1945 POD's, is at least following:
1.) Prevention of USN Korean War buildup. Without it the USN would have had just seven CVBG's (3 Midways, 4 Essexes) as core of it's strike power.
2.) Destruction of RAF, the harbinger of British armed might. This might be brought by two ways: Basing the British nuclear deterrent upon sea (CVBG's, perhaps later on subs) and realization that in a thermonuclear war air defense and large tactical airpower is useless. On the other hand, carrier air power is useful for brushfire wars which can occur within the Cold War context.
3.) Realistic appreciation of Soviet sub threat: it's not as bad as it seems. RN needs to find out that they will not fight a Third Battle of Atlantic.
Finally, and most importantly:
4.) British defense policy which doesn't try to do everything at once. The policy needs to be clearly naval orientated and perhaps focused upon ability to deliver and support Army and Marine (Commando) force interventions globally, with supporting of NATO flanks (Norway and Eastern Med) in case of a general war. So, scrap V-bomber force, scrap UK Air Defense, scrap BAOR (except perhaps some small tripwire force).
Now, my very rough take on what a dominant RN should have in late 1950's, if USN Korean buildup can be cancelled. This is based just on Wiki-level research:
4 Attack carrier strike groups (Malta-class, roughly comparable to US Midway class). These carriers have nuclear deterrent mission.
4 Carrier strike groups (Audacious-class) "General service carriers"
x-number Commando carrier groups (Centaurs, Colossus-class carriers): Commando carriers, also to be used as CVS if necessary
Surface Action Group: Centered upon HMS Vanguard, to be used for NGFS.
4 Attack carrier strike groups (Malta-class, roughly comparable to US Midway class). These carriers have nuclear deterrent mission.
4 Carrier strike groups (Audacious-class) "General service carriers"
x-number Commando carrier groups (Centaurs, Colossus-class carriers): Commando carriers, also to be used as CVS if necessary
Surface Action Group: Centered upon HMS Vanguard, to be used for NGFS.
I doubt that, if Germany wins WW1, there will be a WW2 or, at least, WW2 won't go along the same lines as in OTL WW2, which could lead to no Cold War.