AH Challenge: Rewrite Versailles

Extra points if you deunify Germany and keep it that way until 2009

Considering that no part of Germany was occupied I think that may be pushing it, the terms were already overly harsh, based not on the outcome of the war but the outcome of the war had it continued.

But I suppose it would have made sense to have severed Prussia (the eastern bulk of it), and maybe create a demilitarised neutral rhineland.

Have the socialist revolt in bavaria succeed and you have Germany divided into 3 or 4 bits.

Keeping it that way until 2009 seems unlikely, reunification may well be supported to provide a bulwark against Russia but that depends on whether or not Stalin pursues European aggression (or is perceived to seek to).
 
The allies needed a still unified Germany as a buffer between Europe and the very uncertain status of the newly formed USSR, so Germany could not be splitted up. The new nation of Poland in itself was considered too weak to withstand possible presure from the USSR.

The Versailles treaty also needed Germany to be an economical power, for payments to be made as the result of the lost Great War. Splitting it up would compromise this. Both the UK and USA were strongly supporting a revival of Germany as an industrial and wealthy nation, although France thought otherwise at first.
 
Have the socialist revolt in bavaria succeed and you have Germany divided into 3 or 4 bits.

Hmm. I think this revolt has been played up excessively. It was a socialist revolt in "Munich", not "Bavaria" (your average Bavarian is... not very communist-friendly), whatever it called itself, and it was neatly put down by the Freikorps, who are basically going to exist whatever happens.
 
I think a sounder strategy would be to water down the Teaty rather then make it even worse. With a fairly reasonable treaty, you could butterfly away Hitler, and have a good bulwark against the Soviets.
 

Markus

Banned
Extra points if you deunify Germany and keep it that way until 2009

Easy, the UK and France split Germany into three at gunpoint and keep occupation forces of a few 100,000 men stationed in Germany until 2009. Done!*


*This posting may contain sarcasm.
 
Guys

Splitting up Germany isn't too difficult. May also well prevent WWII, or at least greatly change it. However probably virtually ASB to have it staying divided until the present day.

Basically you need to get rid of interference from Wilson. Possibly a slightly better war for the allies so a last desperate German offensive is defeated in 1917 rather than 1918. The US is at war, having joined in ~April 17 but has played virtually no part in the conflict so has minimal influence at the peace.

The allies are then wise even to partition both Germany and also, probably more importantly Prussia. [Restoring Hanover, Saxony, Hess and probably splitting off the Rhineland as a separate state]. The counter-balance to the harsher territorial action is a milder economic one, with reperations only from Prussia, as another divide and rule tactic, to pay for economic damage, say to Belgium and occupied France. [That is some of the most destructive and also its relevant to the main powers at the peace treaty]. Basically seek to persuade the bulk of the German states their better off outside Prussian control. May not work, unless the Prussians get particularly obnoxious to the rest of Germany but probably better than the historical approach.

Steve
 
The allies are then wise even to partition both Germany and also, probably more importantly Prussia. [Restoring Hanover, Saxony, Hess and probably splitting off the Rhineland as a separate state]. The counter-balance to the harsher territorial action is a milder economic one, with reperations only from Prussia, as another divide and rule tactic, to pay for economic damage, say to Belgium and occupied France. [That is some of the most destructive and also its relevant to the main powers at the peace treaty]. Basically seek to persuade the bulk of the German states their better off outside Prussian control. May not work, unless the Prussians get particularly obnoxious to the rest of Germany but probably better than the historical approach.

Steve

This simply will not work at all. The only part of Germany in 1918 with any
identity of its own was Bavaria, and even the Bavarians would not want French-sponsored independence (or, for that matter, French-sponsored anything). The OTL Rhineland separatists were widely hated by the general public and AFAIK not killed by German army or police but by local farmers. Britain and France would need a huge occupation force, even larger than the OTL post-WWII occupation force, to keep Germany divided. Once they leave (or even if only Britain leaves, which is extremely likely once Anti-German feelings in the UK die down during the 1920s) Germany will just reunify. Prussian domination may be diminished, but even without it every German will hate France a whole lot more than OTL. And if a partitioned and later reunified Germany gets in the position to inflict its revenge on France, things will be way more nasty than in OTL.
 
This simply will not work at all. The only part of Germany in 1918 with any
identity of its own was Bavaria, and even the Bavarians would not want French-sponsored independence (or, for that matter, French-sponsored anything). The OTL Rhineland separatists were widely hated by the general public and AFAIK not killed by German army or police but by local farmers. Britain and France would need a huge occupation force, even larger than the OTL post-WWII occupation force, to keep Germany divided. Once they leave (or even if only Britain leaves, which is extremely likely once Anti-German feelings in the UK die down during the 1920s) Germany will just reunify. Prussian domination may be diminished, but even without it every German will hate France a whole lot more than OTL. And if a partitioned and later reunified Germany gets in the position to inflict its revenge on France, things will be way more nasty than in OTL.

Mulder

I don't know. Think there was still a lot of separate identity in areas such as Saxony and Hanover. Also there had traditionally been a fair amount of tension between the Prussian Rhineland, predominantly mercantile, liberal and Catholic and the eastern heartland, dominanted by the military and agrarian interests. It might be too late by this time but I think there's a decent chance of it working. Don't forget its Prussia rather than Germany as a whole blamed for the excesses of the war and only Prussia paying the markedly reduced level of reparations. If the various states can avoid the economic and political burden I think there would be a decent amount of support in a lot of areas. At least to make any reunification less dominated by Prussia and a revived military simply because there would be even more concern about a new war in a country with less certain unity.

Steve
 
If you want to deunify Germany and keep it that way merely have German split up into four different countries and occupy them until reparations are paid.
 
MulderI don't know. Think there was still a lot of separate identity in areas such as Saxony and Hanover. Also there had traditionally been a fair amount of tension between the Prussian Rhineland, predominantly mercantile, liberal and Catholic and the eastern heartland, dominanted by the military and agrarian interests. It might be too late by this time but I think there's a decent chance of it working. Don't forget its Prussia rather than Germany as a whole blamed for the excesses of the war and only Prussia paying the markedly reduced level of reparations. If the various states can avoid the economic and political burden I think there would be a decent amount of support in a lot of areas. At least to make any reunification less dominated by Prussia and a revived military simply because there would be even more concern about a new war in a country with less certain unity.

I really think you're drastically underestimating the strength of German national feeling. The comradeship of war erased local differences (by analogy, the development of Scottish nationalism completely stopped cold in Britain during the wars), and all the seperatist movements of 1918-1919, as Mulder points out, were laughable. Austria, of course, tried to join Germany in its hour of defeat.

How would this work, logistically? Nothing is going to convince anyone to just secede because the French say so. Germany will have to be occupied, which as far as Britain is concerned is a humungous waste of time and resources (and Britain wouldn't see a fragmented Germany as in its interests either). So this plan required France to invade every portion of Germany they want to carve off, assemble a government (I highly doubt they can get any immediately elected government to support a seperatist program) by themselves, which is of course not going to make them popular, meaning they'll basically need to occupy large parts of Germany under the guise of collaborating governments indefinately.

If you want to deunify Germany and keep it that way merely have German split up into four different countries and occupy them until reparations are paid.

Again, we can't just conjure up "four countries". We'll have to put boots on the ground to make it happen, as if the Ruhr imbroglio wasn't divisive enough, or didn't meet enough resistance from the Germans. We'll have to establish governments which will be effectively ocucpations, since all the creative accounting in the world isn't going to produce a democratic seperatist administration in any quarter in Germany. And we'll have to prop them up as long as we want them to exist.
 
The OP is to rewrite Versailles

So this is my go. Since I am a big fan of the Central Powers, you may notice it will be watered down a bit. However, I will try to keep it realistic, and in the same time make it less harsh to diminish Hitler`s political points gained on this perticular subject.

Treaty of Versailles:

Military restrictions

  • The Rheinland will become a demilitarised zone administered by Great Britain and France jointly.
  • German armed forces will number no more than 300,000 troops, and conscription will be abolished.
  • Enlisted men will be retained for at least 12 years; officers to be retained for at least 25 years.
  • German naval forces will be limited to 20,000 men, 6 battleships (no more than 10,000 tons displacement each), 6 cruisers (no more than 6,000 tons displacement each), 6 destroyers (no more than 800 tons displacement each) and 12 torpedo boats (no more than 200 tons displacement each). No submarines are to be included. (not sure if this part could be watered down a bit)
  • The manufacture, import, and export of poison gas is prohibited.
  • Blockades on ships are prohibited.
Territorial changes
  • Germany loses all its colonies.
  • Alsace and Lorraine are ceded to France.
  • Northern Schleswig was returned to Denmark following a plebiscite on 14 February 1920. Central Schleswig, including the city of Flensburg, opted to remain German in a separate referendum on 14 March 1920.
  • Most of the Prussian provinces of Posen and West Prussia which Prussia had annexed in the Partitions of Poland were ceded to Poland.
  • The province of Saarland was to be a under control of the League of Nations for 10 years, after which a plebiscite between France and Germany, was to decide to which country it would belong.
  • The strategically important port of Danzig with the delta of the Vistula River on the Baltic Sea was separated from Germany as the Free City of Danzig. (This created the so-called Polish Corridor, giving Poland access to the sea.)
Reparations

Im not sure about this. I know the French will demand a heavy sum, but maybe the British will diminish it, wanting to create a buffer between Western Europe and the Soviet Union.
 
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