AH CHALLENGE: Polish-Russian Alliance

Briefly, during the Great Northern War, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth allied with Tsar Peter the Great of Russia against Sweden. Is it possible for Poland and Russia to look at each other as allied nations rather than eternal enemies?
Your Challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to forge a Polish-Muscovite alliance with a POD no earlier than 1640 and no later than 1750.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Briefly, during the Great Northern War, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth allied with Tsar Peter the Great of Russia against Sweden. Is it possible for Poland and Russia to look at each other as allied nations rather than eternal enemies?
Your Challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to forge a Polish-Muscovite alliance with a POD no earlier than 1640 and no later than 1750.
Well there was something called the Warsaw Pact, it pretended to be an alliance or so it said about itself, but it was really about one country dominating the other. If you pick an earlier time period, how can tell the difference between a true alliance and Russia setting up a puppet government in Poland that claims to be an ally of Russia? Russia always thought that Poles ought to be Russians, and Poles who wanted to keep a seperate national identity begged to differ.

I think so long as Pole want to be independent and Russia thinks Poland ought to be part of Russia, I'd say it would be very hard for the two to have any sort of alliance. Russia would have to permanently give up expanding their Empire into Poland, and it seems to me it would be easier for Russia to be allies with Great Britian as its not right on their border, and their is no immediate prospect of a Russian expansion onto the British Isles, so alliances are possible between those two so long as their are other nations between them, but when one borders the other, there is a conflict of interest between expanding one's borders and maintaining good relations with those countries whose territory you want.
 
Well there was something called the Warsaw Pact, it pretended to be an alliance or so it said about itself, but it was really about one country dominating the other. If you pick an earlier time period, how can tell the difference between a true alliance and Russia setting up a puppet government in Poland that claims to be an ally of Russia? Russia always thought that Poles ought to be Russians, and Poles who wanted to keep a seperate national identity begged to differ.

I think so long as Pole want to be independent and Russia thinks Poland ought to be part of Russia, I'd say it would be very hard for the two to have any sort of alliance. Russia would have to permanently give up expanding their Empire into Poland, and it seems to me it would be easier for Russia to be allies with Great Britian as its not right on their border, and their is no immediate prospect of a Russian expansion onto the British Isles, so alliances are possible between those two so long as their are other nations between them, but when one borders the other, there is a conflict of interest between expanding one's borders and maintaining good relations with those countries whose territory you want.

Do you happen to not familiar with the situations during 1640s to 1750s ? :confused:
 
Well, a stronger Poland would help - Russia would be rather more willing to negociate with rather than push around a Poland capable of kicking it's teeth in. But for an alliance, you need a strong motivation - either a common enemy or for both to have bigger preoccupations than who rightly should rule Belorus.

A stronger Ottoman empire might make for a common enemy: or if the Russians have to keep an eye on stronger Ottomans/a more Siberia-oriented Manchu Empire/Greater Persia while Poland has a Prussian Problem and competes with Austria for influence in Hungary, an alliance to protect eachother's flanks might also work.

Also, there's the dynastic alliance bit - didn't Ivan the Terrible's son almost marry into the Polish/Lithuanian royal house?

Bruce
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Well there was something called the Warsaw Pact, it pretended to be an alliance or so it said about itself, but it was really about one country dominating the other. If you pick an earlier time period, how can tell the difference between a true alliance and Russia setting up a puppet government in Poland that claims to be an ally of Russia? Russia always thought that Poles ought to be Russians, and Poles who wanted to keep a seperate national identity begged to differ.

I think so long as Pole want to be independent and Russia thinks Poland ought to be part of Russia, I'd say it would be very hard for the two to have any sort of alliance. Russia would have to permanently give up expanding their Empire into Poland, and it seems to me it would be easier for Russia to be allies with Great Britian as its not right on their border, and their is no immediate prospect of a Russian expansion onto the British Isles, so alliances are possible between those two so long as their are other nations between them, but when one borders the other, there is a conflict of interest between expanding one's borders and maintaining good relations with those countries whose territory you want.

Or the Poles thinking Russia should be a part of Poland... well in the late 1600s it started to become too late fort that. It's hard to see Russia and Poland not as natural rivals.
 
Or the Poles thinking Russia should be a part of Poland...

Where did that one line come from? Does anyone know? It was something like "Russia if you keep messing with me Warsaw will become your new capital" Cant remember who said that line its bugging me.:mad:
 
One possibility could be a world where the Swedes win the Great Northern War in the Early 1700's and gain territory at the expense of the Polish and Russians.

This of course leads over time to an alliance of necessity between the Polish and Russians who view the Swedish as their common enemy. Eventually, another war breaks out which pits the Swedes against the combined might of the Russians and Polish.

Whether or not the Russians and Polish win is anyone's guess but having A strong Sweden as a common enemy might have been enough to make the Russia and Poland set aside their differences long enough to deal with Sweden by forming a temporary alliance.
 
The problem with that solution is Sweden's demographics. How long can they continue as a power dangerous enough to force Russia and Poland into a lasting alliance?

Also, of course, the major point of contention were Orthodox lands under the PLC. By the time Russia was strong enough to challenge for them, Polish statehood and nobility were pretty deeeply entrenched in these territories, and Lithuanian nobility sufficiently Polonized.

So Russia wanted those lands and Poland couldn't really give them away at all. A hostile Sweden would do it, but for how long?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Yup, Sweden would not be sufficient as a long term enemy. Poland and Russia allied could take them out. What about a succesful Ottoman Empire taking Vienna. There's a threat both Poland and Russia would fear.
 
Where did that one line come from? Does anyone know? It was something like "Russia if you keep messing with me Warsaw will become your new capital" Cant remember who said that line its bugging me.:mad:

That was Poland who said that in Axis Powers Hetalia. Correction: Poland threatened Russia with the Poland Rule if he kept on bothering Lithuania.
 

MSZ

Banned
The problem with forging such an alliance lies with Russia, which's expansionist tendecies bring it in conflict with all it's neighbours, regardless of geography or religion. That eastern Poland had a substantial Orthodox population and the Ukraine was a rich province just fuels russian greed.

Poland simply being stronger won't do - it was routinely curp-stomping Russia in the XVI ad XVII centuries, yet Russia simply went on to try again. 1640 is to late to have such an alliance formed via a Union (Polish king as Tsar of Russia during the Time of Troubles) or to substantially change the autocratic paranoid regime of the tzars (get rid of the mongols, or Ivan IV at least). Sweden could only serve as a permanent threat for both Poland and Russia long, unless it somehow became the "Kingdom of Scandivavia", it's policy colliding with both Poland and Russia. Turkey could serve as another enemy for both of them.

Alternately, one could try to form a personal union between Poland and Russia in the XVIII century by having some Tsesarevich elected as King of Poland, and later inheriting the Russian throne. Difficult seeing that King of Poland had to be Catholic, but rules could propably change. Maybe Alexei Petrovich could somehow have for of his fathers as well as of the Polish Nobilities favour and be elected as King of Poland after the Great Northern War? Would require him to partcipate in it to a significant extent, so that would propably be a childhood PoD for him.
 
Top