AH Challenge! Phoenician Colony Britain

Make THAT happen.
And a genuine good answer.

The POD can be anytime during the Punic expansion.

Just makes Britain a phoenician colony.
Also what of the butterflies?
 
Make THAT happen.
And a genuine good answer.

The POD can be anytime during the Punic expansion.

Just makes Britain a phoenician colony.
Also what of the butterflies?
tough, really tough.

They TENDED to set up cities and stuff, not do massive territorial expansion à la Rome. OTOH, they did, at least control much of southern Spain...

A client state in Cornwall with the tin mines would be almost trivial. The whole island would be very, very difficult. IMO.
 
Yeah I doubt they'd head out of the Med for anything other than for trade and exploration. I reckon you need a Phoenician Gaul to make it work
 
There is 1 possibility you might like to consider.
Between the 2nd & 3rd Punic wars some of Carthege's ships captains and merchant families might see the writing on the wall and decide to leave the Med. Britain was a known location, and importantly far from the influence of Rome. The Captains would have local contacts from their trading voyages. Once a colony was established and a proper city built it would draw in people from the surrounding countryside. It would also arouse the jelousy of the tribal chieftans and so would have to form an army to defend itself. Disaplined troops would rout any tribal millitia provided they were not rediculasly out numbered. Through graduale conquest they territoury of the colony would spread over southern Britain.

New types of ship would be developed to cope with the conditions of the Chanel and the south west approaches. To deal with gaulish raiders some of these ships would be warships. This would make Ceaser's & possibly Claudius's invasion attempts impossible.

Ceaser in Britain.
He came. He saw. He ran away. TWICE!!!
 
Peg Leg Pom said:
voyages. Once a colony was established and a proper city built it would draw in people from the surrounding countryside.
Not necessarily. The Celts knew about cities. They did not build them though because urban life was not part of their culture. Thus they could very well decide just to occasionally visit trade with New Carthage and leave it at that.

Peg Leg Pom said:
It would also arouse the jelousy of the tribal chieftans and so would have to form an army to defend itself. Disaplined troops would rout any tribal millitia provided they were not rediculasly out numbered.
I don't necessarily see any jealousy. What I do see is a bunch of foreigners squatting on tribal lands and thus should be run off. Given that the Carthaginians would have a serious manpower problem, I can't see that being very difficult.

Peg Leg Pom said:
New types of ship would be developed to cope with the conditions of the Chanel and the south west approaches.
Alternatively, just copy Venetii vessels.

If the Carthaginians are going to build a colony in Britain they are going to need local allies. Given the Atrebatii were friendly with the Romans, ie civilised foreigners, they could equally as well be friendly with the Carthaginians. That would the colonist the early break they would need. If not then they would last little longer than a Viking colony in North America.
 
Between the 2nd & 3rd Punic wars some of Carthege's ships captains and merchant families might see the writing on the wall and decide to leave the Med.

There were other Punic cities in Spain and North Africa. Any pragmatic merchant resident of Carthage would have moved to one of them before the siege began.

Britain was a known location, and importantly far from the influence of Rome. The Captains would have local contacts from their trading voyages. Once a colony was established and a proper city built it would draw in people from the surrounding countryside.

Just because people of the Mediterranean used Mud Brick in contrast to the wood and wattle structures in northern Europe, doesn't make them more civilized. Stone structures were probably rare in northern Europe because trees were more plentiful than in the countries in the immediate vicinity of the Mediterranean.

It would also arouse the jelousy of the tribal chieftans and so would have to form an army to defend itself. Disaplined troops would rout any tribal millitia provided they were not rediculasly out numbered. Through graduale conquest they territoury of the colony would spread over southern Britain.

Why should the native British be jealous of the Phoenicians, especially when they rule the land and control what comes out of it?

There is a pretty good reason why the Carthaginians relied extensively on foreign troops, including Celts BTW. The Phoenicians of Carthage were often outnumbered by the very people they ruled over, so foreign fighting talent was required whether they liked it or not.

And do you really think that Celtic mercenaries would survive numerous engagements when in foreign service, only to come home without learning a damn thing in regard to military strategy and maneuvres? Why does everyone still assume that the Britons and Gauls were far too stupid backward to develop their own economy and culture?:mad:

New types of ship would be developed to cope with the conditions of the Chanel and the south west approaches. To deal with gaulish raiders some of these ships would be warships. This would make Ceaser's & possibly Claudius's invasion attempts impossible.

The Venetii tribe of Brittany employed large ships with thick hulls, with their sterns higher up from the waterline than most Mediterranean galleys, and were usually sail-powered without over-reliance on oars. Caesar and his officers had to come up with some sophisticated tactics to overcome them. Still, the Venetii vessels were quite close in design to Medeival Caravels, and were purpose-built for the rough north Atlantic seas. Too bad they weren't used again after the Roman conquest of Gaul.
 
The 2nd Punic war ended in 201 BC, the third started in 149 BC. Thats plenty of time to plan the starting of a new colony. The Carthagieans were traders and wealthy. They could negotiate a site for their initial settlement. The reason they might not chose to settle in spain is that during the second punic war it fell under Roman domination. Gaul was except for the coast between Italy and Spain indepentant. It was Ceaser that brought Gaul into the empire between 58 and 50 BC. It was also Ceaser that first establishede Roman links with Britain. Depending when between the 2nd & 3rd Punic wars the settlers would have had between 150 to 100 years to establish themselves before Ceasers abortive invasion attempts. (Which were little more than deadly political stunts anyway). The takeover would be a gradual process over many generations as the Celtic elite would be seduced by the more comfortable way of life in the Colony. As happened with the Roman conquest the Tribel leaders would over generations become indistigushable from the Cartherginians. Just the use of coins instead of barter for trade would change the society of iron age Britain, as would the introduction of the written word.

In any society there are thous who are not happy with their possition within it. These would be the ones who would be drawn to the new settlements, as would those on the run from tribal laws. Many of these would be enslaved but those that wern't should be able to carve out a place for themselves. If nothing else the ships will need crews, the army recruites and the settlers wives.

By the time of Ceaser Britain would be a very different place from the one he described. (and that description must be taken with a large pinch of salt anyway.) If they had followed the typical Phonecian/cartheginien model then Britain would not be a unified Island but structured more like clasical Greece with many independant city states, probably based on the old tribal stronghold. However I believe that after been drivan out of the Med they would try to form at least a federation to combat the threat from Rome.

As to where to place the first settlement my choice would be the Isle of Wight as it would be easier to defend than a location on the mainland, there is also the Isle of Mann but that might be to isolated.
 
Coins were already well known to the Celts of Britain and Gaul, and the fact that the Gauls actually were literate raises the possibility that the Britons may have been familiar with literacy as well, or would have just adopted it anyway in the absence of Roman expansion. Rulers of southern Britain had lettering on their coinage prior to the Roman Invasion by Claudius. In any case, Celtic civilization was built largely on trade, despite their classical image as savage headhunters. So if the Phocian Greeks of Massalia never expanded much further inland into Gaul, what chance are a few thousand Phoenician refugees going to have? The Celts aren't that much different from the Greeks really. How often in Antiquity were the Greeks unified? It didn't stop them from spreading their culture.

We call the Celts tribal, and the Greeks, Romans and Phoenicians urbanized, but the Celts already had a sophisticated body of laws and were well in the transition from rural tribal collectives to urbanized power structures between the Third-First Century BCE.

If some Phoenician merchant families were for some reason to settle in Britain, they would probably serve as clients to their native British benefactors by acting as their agents in the Mediterranean economy. Otherwise, this is probably not such a good idea to preserve Punic civilization. Because if its just seamen and merchants that land up in Britain, it may in fact be them that assimilate to ancient British culture. Was there not a priest caste in Carthage whom preserved and Punic culture and tradition?

Its better to either destroy Rome in one of the first two Punic Wars, or strenghen central authority in Carthaginian Spain. That place was the great frontier for them, the Phoenicians own Wild West. It was an abundant source of silver, which was why it was a source of wealth and manpower for Hannibal before and during the Second Punic War.

Maybe after succeeding in destroying Rome, Hannibal could return to Spain, and reorganize the colony into his own kingdom. The territory had been run practically as the personal realm of the Barca Family since Hamalcar arrived several years after the First Punic War.
 
Last edited:

Hashasheen

Banned
Maybe after succeeding in destroying Rome, Hannibal could return to Spain, and reorganize the colony into his own kingdom. The territory had been run practically as the personal realm of the Barca Family since Hamalcar arrived several years after the First Punic War.
I toyed with this idea for a bit. The idea of two Phoenician kingdoms in Spain and North Africa playing one another off. My idea was however before the Second Punic War, and was largely ended by the fact that Hannibal had more charisma, leadership and military ability on his side than the Senate in Carthage. Any way this happens simply leads to Barca rule over Carthage. Which isn't that bad...
 
I discussed with someone not too long ago about what may occur in Carthaginian society if Hannibal crushed Rome in Punic War Number 2.

After sacking the city, Hannibal ransacked the other towns with Roman Civitas in Latium, enslaving much of the citizen body, slaughtering the Patricians, and confiscating the ships of the Roman Navy in port, before sailing back to Punic Spain, with the slaves and war-booty in tow, and launching new campaigns to recapture Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia.

The increasing power and prestige of Hannibal Barca would frieghten the Carthiginian Senate, before storming the city, becoming the Shophet, and setting himself up as a de facto monarch.

To retain his power, Hannibal would award his loyal Iberian and Celtic troops with land grants in the countryside around Carthage and in Sicily, creating a new class of yeomanry whom owe him and his family their personal loyalty. Hanniabl may have even created his own private force of Iberians, posted in and around the city of Carthage, and be in a position to either limit or even purge the more belligerant elements of the old Carthaginian Oligarchy.

The descendents of those Iberians granted land in return for military service may adopt Punic culture, and even begin a trend to assimilate loyal non-Phoenicians to be granted special social priveliges, and equivelant to the Roman Citizenship concept.
 
The 2nd Punic war ended in 201 BC, the third started in 149 BC. Thats plenty of time to plan the starting of a new colony. The Carthagieans were traders and wealthy. They could negotiate a site for their initial settlement. The reason they might not chose to settle in spain is that during the second punic war it fell under Roman domination. Gaul was except for the coast between Italy and Spain indepentant. It was Ceaser that brought Gaul into the empire between 58 and 50 BC. It was also Ceaser that first establishede Roman links with Britain. Depending when between the 2nd & 3rd Punic wars the settlers would have had between 150 to 100 years to establish themselves before Ceasers abortive invasion attempts. (Which were little more than deadly political stunts anyway). The takeover would be a gradual process over many generations as the Celtic elite would be seduced by the more comfortable way of life in the Colony. As happened with the Roman conquest the Tribel leaders would over generations become indistigushable from the Cartherginians. Just the use of coins instead of barter for trade would change the society of iron age Britain, as would the introduction of the written word.

The problem is the Roman Republic would never have permitted Carthage to establish any sort of colonies after the Second Punic War. Between the Second and Third Punic wars the Romans essentially viewed Carthage as a client-state, and would never have permitted Carthage to perform any sort of colonial venture.
 
I don't believe there is a single scenario where both the civilizations of Rome and Carthage could thrive and co-exist. One of them has to die. And even then, the Phoenicians are largely outnumbered by neighbouring cultures and ethnic groups, as well as being crippled by living under a socially restrictive oligarchy. Expansion into Spain could be good for the long-term survival of their civilization, but never discount the Gauls, Britons, or Iberians. Tribal doe NOT mean primitive and backward.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Is there any possibility of Phoenician Britain showing up pre-Carthage? For example, Phoenician merchants head up to Cornwall for tin, local ruler charges exorbitant prices for it, and the merchants show up with a fleet a year or three later to renegotiate the terms? And once they've done that, they might as well just take the tin for themselves and cut out the front-man (the Phoenicians themselves having been the middle-men)?

And as the Med gets more chaotic and crowded in the years leading up to the OTL Punic Wars, perhaps more and more Phoenicians decide to relocate to the safer ports of Britain? The local naval stores might also be a point in favor, especially if Lebanon was starting to run a bit low on suitable wood at this point. As would the near-pristine local fishing.
 
Is there any possibility of Phoenician Britain showing up pre-Carthage? For example, Phoenician merchants head up to Cornwall for tin, local ruler charges exorbitant prices for it, and the merchants show up with a fleet a year or three later to renegotiate the terms? And once they've done that, they might as well just take the tin for themselves and cut out the front-man (the Phoenicians themselves having been the middle-men)?

And as the Med gets more chaotic and crowded in the years leading up to the OTL Punic Wars, perhaps more and more Phoenicians decide to relocate to the safer ports of Britain? The local naval stores might also be a point in favor, especially if Lebanon was starting to run a bit low on suitable wood at this point. As would the near-pristine local fishing.

Why would the Phoenicians, prior to the 800's BCE, take a warfleet out all the way to Britain, well beyond the familiar waters of the Mediterranean Sea, just to intimidate the local Britons over mere Tin? I would think that there were other places to get it.
 
so WI as a previous poster stated the Phoenicians came to the British Isles and took over the tin trade and became the numer uno culture and power in the region.

Would a british Phoenician entity be more aligned with say any Iberian Pheonician state compared to the rigid Carthaginian Phoenician state?
 

The Sandman

Banned
Why would the Phoenicians, prior to the 800's BCE, take a warfleet out all the way to Britain, well beyond the familiar waters of the Mediterranean Sea, just to intimidate the local Britons over mere Tin? I would think that there were other places to get it.

not many...

I think Tin was mined in the Taurus Mountains of Anatolia during that period.

On the other side of one of the major powers of the period (the Hittites), then.

And tin was extraordinarily important, given that you need it to make bronze and that bronze was still the primary military metal in this period.

The fleet would presumably be expected to pay for itself, partly by looting the local chiefdom that had the effrontery to overcharge for its tin and partly by then selling the tin back into the primary Mediterranean trade network. Indeed, the profits to be gained by controlling the Cornish tin trade would be a major incentive to launching the expedition. And having a major colony and shipbuilding port well away from the Mediterranean would start to look very attractive as the area grows more volatile.
 
On the other side of one of the major powers of the period (the Hittites), then.

And tin was extraordinarily important, given that you need it to make bronze and that bronze was still the primary military metal in this period.

The fleet would presumably be expected to pay for itself, partly by looting the local chiefdom that had the effrontery to overcharge for its tin and partly by then selling the tin back into the primary Mediterranean trade network. Indeed, the profits to be gained by controlling the Cornish tin trade would be a major incentive to launching the expedition. And having a major colony and shipbuilding port well away from the Mediterranean would start to look very attractive as the area grows more volatile.

Britain is still TOO FAR from Phoenicia. Such a fleet and army would be too expensive to assemble. Better it was used to fight foes closer to home than on some foolhardy mission outside the Med.

Plus, the Britons at the time were knowledgable in Bronze manufacture themselves. Precisely what advantage would the Phoenicians have over the Britons if they were this desperate for Tin? Don't just dismiss the Britons of the First Millenium BCE as Neolithic primitives.
 
Top