tough, really tough.Make THAT happen.
And a genuine good answer.
The POD can be anytime during the Punic expansion.
Just makes Britain a phoenician colony.
Also what of the butterflies?
Not necessarily. The Celts knew about cities. They did not build them though because urban life was not part of their culture. Thus they could very well decide just to occasionally visit trade with New Carthage and leave it at that.Peg Leg Pom said:voyages. Once a colony was established and a proper city built it would draw in people from the surrounding countryside.
I don't necessarily see any jealousy. What I do see is a bunch of foreigners squatting on tribal lands and thus should be run off. Given that the Carthaginians would have a serious manpower problem, I can't see that being very difficult.Peg Leg Pom said:It would also arouse the jelousy of the tribal chieftans and so would have to form an army to defend itself. Disaplined troops would rout any tribal millitia provided they were not rediculasly out numbered.
Alternatively, just copy Venetii vessels.Peg Leg Pom said:New types of ship would be developed to cope with the conditions of the Chanel and the south west approaches.
Between the 2nd & 3rd Punic wars some of Carthege's ships captains and merchant families might see the writing on the wall and decide to leave the Med.
Britain was a known location, and importantly far from the influence of Rome. The Captains would have local contacts from their trading voyages. Once a colony was established and a proper city built it would draw in people from the surrounding countryside.
It would also arouse the jelousy of the tribal chieftans and so would have to form an army to defend itself. Disaplined troops would rout any tribal millitia provided they were not rediculasly out numbered. Through graduale conquest they territoury of the colony would spread over southern Britain.
New types of ship would be developed to cope with the conditions of the Chanel and the south west approaches. To deal with gaulish raiders some of these ships would be warships. This would make Ceaser's & possibly Claudius's invasion attempts impossible.
I toyed with this idea for a bit. The idea of two Phoenician kingdoms in Spain and North Africa playing one another off. My idea was however before the Second Punic War, and was largely ended by the fact that Hannibal had more charisma, leadership and military ability on his side than the Senate in Carthage. Any way this happens simply leads to Barca rule over Carthage. Which isn't that bad...Maybe after succeeding in destroying Rome, Hannibal could return to Spain, and reorganize the colony into his own kingdom. The territory had been run practically as the personal realm of the Barca Family since Hamalcar arrived several years after the First Punic War.
The 2nd Punic war ended in 201 BC, the third started in 149 BC. Thats plenty of time to plan the starting of a new colony. The Carthagieans were traders and wealthy. They could negotiate a site for their initial settlement. The reason they might not chose to settle in spain is that during the second punic war it fell under Roman domination. Gaul was except for the coast between Italy and Spain indepentant. It was Ceaser that brought Gaul into the empire between 58 and 50 BC. It was also Ceaser that first establishede Roman links with Britain. Depending when between the 2nd & 3rd Punic wars the settlers would have had between 150 to 100 years to establish themselves before Ceasers abortive invasion attempts. (Which were little more than deadly political stunts anyway). The takeover would be a gradual process over many generations as the Celtic elite would be seduced by the more comfortable way of life in the Colony. As happened with the Roman conquest the Tribel leaders would over generations become indistigushable from the Cartherginians. Just the use of coins instead of barter for trade would change the society of iron age Britain, as would the introduction of the written word.
Is there any possibility of Phoenician Britain showing up pre-Carthage? For example, Phoenician merchants head up to Cornwall for tin, local ruler charges exorbitant prices for it, and the merchants show up with a fleet a year or three later to renegotiate the terms? And once they've done that, they might as well just take the tin for themselves and cut out the front-man (the Phoenicians themselves having been the middle-men)?
And as the Med gets more chaotic and crowded in the years leading up to the OTL Punic Wars, perhaps more and more Phoenicians decide to relocate to the safer ports of Britain? The local naval stores might also be a point in favor, especially if Lebanon was starting to run a bit low on suitable wood at this point. As would the near-pristine local fishing.
Why would the Phoenicians, prior to the 800's BCE, take a warfleet out all the way to Britain, well beyond the familiar waters of the Mediterranean Sea, just to intimidate the local Britons over mere Tin? I would think that there were other places to get it.
not many...
Why would the Phoenicians, prior to the 800's BCE, take a warfleet out all the way to Britain, well beyond the familiar waters of the Mediterranean Sea, just to intimidate the local Britons over mere Tin? I would think that there were other places to get it.
not many...
I think Tin was mined in the Taurus Mountains of Anatolia during that period.
On the other side of one of the major powers of the period (the Hittites), then.
And tin was extraordinarily important, given that you need it to make bronze and that bronze was still the primary military metal in this period.
The fleet would presumably be expected to pay for itself, partly by looting the local chiefdom that had the effrontery to overcharge for its tin and partly by then selling the tin back into the primary Mediterranean trade network. Indeed, the profits to be gained by controlling the Cornish tin trade would be a major incentive to launching the expedition. And having a major colony and shipbuilding port well away from the Mediterranean would start to look very attractive as the area grows more volatile.