AH Challenge: Persia becomes a major power

With a POD after 1798, your challenge is to make Persia a major power in the Middle East and Central Asia.

Bonus points if it has african colonies in the scramble for Africa
 
Persia was a natural enemy of the Ottoman Empire so I see one possible scenario:

Napoleon, during his bid for Egypt, tries to secure an alliance with Persia. While a military backwater, having Persia and the Ottomans duke it out would allow him to capture Egypt with less casualties. Intrigued, the Shaw (I believe that was the Persian title for king) sends one of his sons to negotiate with Napoleon. Whether or not such an alliance goes through is immaterial. the important point is that the Persian prince is impressed with technology of the west. Skip a few years to the Shaw dying and this prince taking the throne. He then goes on to pull a Peter the Great with Persia.
 
Persia was a natural enemy of the Ottoman Empire so I see one possible scenario:

Napoleon, during his bid for Egypt, tries to secure an alliance with Persia. While a military backwater, having Persia and the Ottomans duke it out would allow him to capture Egypt with less casualties. Intrigued, the Shaw (I believe that was the Persian title for king) sends one of his sons to negotiate with Napoleon. Whether or not such an alliance goes through is immaterial. the important point is that the Persian prince is impressed with technology of the west. Skip a few years to the Shaw dying and this prince taking the throne. He then goes on to pull a Peter the Great with Persia.

I would agree the Napoleonic Wars are the only possibility. If we take your scenario, use butterflies to kill off Mahmud II, leaving no heir to the House of Osman, and perhaps a more successful outcome to Napoleon's Russian campaign, you could end up with Persia seizing Mesopotamia and the Persian Gulf Coast of the Arabian peninsula including Bahrein - and keeping the Caucasus territory, leaving Persia in possession of the vast majority of the world's oil reserves. With less Russian pressure, Persia manages to reform, expands over time in Central Asia and Afghanistan, and as a result, by the 20th c controls something like this:
 
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...Persia seizing Mesopotamia and the Persian Gulf Coast of the Arabian peninsula including Bahrein - and keeping the Caucasus territory, leaving Persia in possession of the vast majority of the world's oil reserves. With less Russian pressure, Persia manages to reform, expands over time in Central Asia and Afghanistan, and as a result, by the 20th c controls something like this

Makes sense. One concern I have with those borders is a rather 20th century one... Are there enough self-identified Persians in that state? That's a non-trivial share of Arabs, Kurds, etc. Not to suggest the country couldn't be more or less successfully multiethnic, but seems like a potential weakness if not handled carefully.

Also, what would a stronger Persia in the 19th century mean for (probably) British India?
 
Also, what would a stronger Persia in the 19th century mean for (probably) British India?

i wouldnt be suprised if the British and/or the russians wound up backing Persia at various points in time as a buffer state between russian possessions in central asia and British india. If Persia achieves the borders that Abdul outlined, I would expect the british to expand up to them, probably launch some expeditions which accomplish nothing, and then back Persia against russian expansion.
 
In Central Asian politics, they're basicly be a bigger Afghanistan.
Persia will be alot richer though...

I can see a lot of the already shiite minorities in Persia assimilate to the Iranian culture, I don't think cultural divisions will be a big problem. Many central-asian peoples will assimilate also.
The shiite arabs won't be a problem, though the sunnis might.

I don't think Persia can get an african colony, at best a small coastal town in somalia and greater economic influence in east africa.
 
Makes sense. One concern I have with those borders is a rather 20th century one... Are there enough self-identified Persians in that state? That's a non-trivial share of Arabs, Kurds, etc. Not to suggest the country couldn't be more or less successfully multiethnic, but seems like a potential weakness if not handled carefully.

Also, what would a stronger Persia in the 19th century mean for (probably) British India?

Today's Iran is only 60% Persian. The area outlined was very much in the Persian cultural sphere, which seems to be plenty to hold it together. Note that there has been no pull whatsoever for Iranian Azerbaijan to unite with Azerbaijan since it became independent.
 
As said though not Perisan Tajiks and some other central asians are very close.
I've a few Persian friends and I remember we once watched a film in Tajik- they understood it pretty well without the subtitles. Seems to be like the Scandinavian languages.
 

Susano

Banned
As said though not Perisan Tajiks and some other central asians are very close.
I've a few Persian friends and I remember we once watched a film in Tajik- they understood it pretty well without the subtitles. Seems to be like the Scandinavian languages.

But that applies ONLY to Tajiik, which is a Persian Language. The other -stan languages are Turkic.
And, well, I thought big part iof why the Azeris dont want to leave is the shared religion. So, that would work for southern Mesopotamia and the Arabian Peninsula eastern coast, too, but not really for Turkestan, either...
 
As said though not Perisan Tajiks and some other central asians are very close.
I've a few Persian friends and I remember we once watched a film in Tajik- they understood it pretty well without the subtitles. Seems to be like the Scandinavian languages.

I've heard the same thing about Urdu and Persian. Maybe what is today Pakistan end up becoming a part of Persia or were British already too strong in the area?
 

Hendryk

Banned
If we take your scenario, use butterflies to kill off Mahmud II, leaving no heir to the House of Osman, and perhaps a more successful outcome to Napoleon's Russian campaign, you could end up with Persia seizing Mesopotamia and the Persian Gulf Coast of the Arabian peninsula including Bahrein - and keeping the Caucasus territory, leaving Persia in possession of the vast majority of the world's oil reserves. With less Russian pressure, Persia manages to reform, expands over time in Central Asia and Afghanistan
Interesting, I'd like to see a TL come out of this. I don't recall reading anything about a Persia that manages to become a major power in the modern era.
 
I don't think Persia can get an african colony, at best a small coastal town in somalia and greater economic influence in east africa.

Giving this some thought, a lot of Swahilis thought of themselves as having descended from Persians. If Persia managed to dominate Oman, you could end up with Persian Zanzibar. It's not likely, but possible. That could lead to a significant East African empire.
 
Interesting, I'd like to see a TL come out of this. I don't recall reading anything about a Persia that manages to become a major power in the modern era.

I'm reasonable familiar with 19th c Persian history, but probably not enough to manage a TL. The problem is that at the turn of the 19th c, Persia was as bad a basket case as the Ottomans, but didn't ever have a reform movement. Persia has even worse problems to overcome when it comes to communications than the Ottomans, and it's also further from exposure to capitalism, so its chances of success are even more limited - I really don't know where to begin. It might require a Great Leader of some sort.
 

Hendryk

Banned
The problem is that at the turn of the 19th c, Persia was as bad a basket case as the Ottomans, but didn't ever have a reform movement. Persia has even worse problems to overcome when it comes to communications than the Ottomans, and it's also further from exposure to capitalism, so its chances of success are even more limited - I really don't know where to begin. It might require a Great Leader of some sort.
Well, could concern over British colonial expansion from India lead to attempts to modernize, perhaps with French assistance?
 
The ASB's isot 600 AD Persia from the Talisman of God- Verse to 1840.
Persia controls Baluchistan, Persia, Iraq, entire coastline of the Caspian Sea, eastern half of Syria and both sides of the Persian Gulf.
It has a 1840~1860 tech Base -Railroads, Steamboats, Telegraph, Breechloading Muskets, Splat and Organ guns
 
You know were talking about the Qajars here,

not always the most able lot but not so bad at the turn of the 1800's. A strong and competent leader with connections along the lines of Mehmet Ali to a western power is probably neaded...but they willl be a cockpit of influence between Britain and Russia which doesn't really bode well unless one of them decides to forgo direct interests and backs them against the other in favour of mor intangible indirect benefits. this seems something the British are more likely to do than the Russians... but a capable Qajar shah could play off the two interests against each other.

As to expansion if they could defeat the Ottomans... and thats a big if... then mesopotamia and parts of the Arabian East coast could probably be incorporated directly along with Azerbaijan in the Caucasus and parts of NW Afghanistan perhaps... but Cen Asia may simply be an area of cultural and political influence. A conduit for the British perhaps, or the French alternatively should they find themselves so inclined, though I don't think that was really the case OTL. In which case you have a three way Great Game as it were....

Persian influence in the Omani/Zanzibari Empire would definitely increase as well.
 
IranUSSRBritain.jpg


I couldn't find the original cartoon that I wanted, the one in mind has a variation of this picture and I think the caption is, British Lion: "What are you (Russian Bear) doing with our friend?"

Anyway, the point I'm making is that maybe if the Great Game goes hot -an interesting TL in it's own right - then Persia might be able to prevent itself becoming a pawn between these two powers, get a look at how the Western powers fight and maybe even take advantage of the situation.

:)
 
I think if the Great Game turned hot, Persia would be destroyed right after Afghanistan, and that's only because it's so much bigger...
 
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