AH Challenge: Ottomans crush the Greek Revolution 1821-30

Commissar

Banned
As the tin says, the Ottomans win, destroy the revolution and executes and enslaves the rebels. How you do it, is up to you.
 
As the tin says, the Ottomans win, destroy the revolution and executes and enslaves the rebels. How you do it, is up to you.

Why ? :confused:

Did the foreign interference absolutely terminate Ottoman chance anyway ? Though I guess they were indeed more likely to lose that one....
 
As the tin says, the Ottomans win, destroy the revolution and executes and enslaves the rebels. How you do it, is up to you.

ASB. It was easy for the Ottomans to defeat the Greeks and would have done so if it wasn't for foreign intervention. The leaders are going to be executed but enslavement, talk about overboard.
 
Turks r teh ev00l, that's the rule :) Don't you dare challenge truth !! :mad:

This is probably ironically one of the few times I defend the Ottomans. :p They're not evil, I think it would do them good to retain Christian majority areas in the Balkans since we know the Ottomans did have a nice track record in keeping the peace between the various ethnic and religious groups. ;)
 
As the tin says, the Ottomans win, destroy the revolution and executes and enslaves the rebels. How you do it, is up to you.

Don't know about the enslaving, but without foreign powers the revolt would have been suppressed. With the intervention, no.

Maybe get intervention on opposite sides?
 
If a large-scale Greek revolt happened 5-10 years earlier, Europe would have been in the grip of the Napoleonic Wars. More likely than not, none of the powers would have been willing to commit to such a peripheral area. When the Ottoman's crush the revolt, the next would be delayed. You could see a generation or two pass before the issue became a determining one again.

That said, Greece is a peninsula in an era of European naval dominance. It also has one of the stronger national identities in the entire region, and a higher percentage of Christians than much of what became Macedonia, Bulgaria, and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Independence is the most likely long term outcome in the modern era.
 

Don Grey

Banned
No classical greek fan boys in europe or have the revolt start earlyer while europe is bussy with the nepoleonic wars. But Greek independence is inevitable there going to break of. They had been bitten bu the bug of nationalism. Even if the ottomans crush the revolt which is easy the euro's will never let such a potential threat to ottoman territorial integrity left un tamperd. Unless by some magical luck the majority of the greek above 90% convert to islam there will be a sepretist movement and plenty of people willing to fund it.

So to the OP yes it can be crushed but cant be held. But if by some form of luck it is held it will be constant problam because your having an entire country and a people ready to become the 5th column at the first chance they get or when the ottomans are bussy with some else.
 
No classical greek fan boys in europe or have the revolt start earlyer while europe is bussy with the nepoleonic wars. But Greek independence is inevitable there going to break of. They had been bitten bu the bug of nationalism. Even if the ottomans crush the revolt which is easy the euro's will never let such a potential threat to ottoman territorial integrity left un tamperd. Unless by some magical luck the majority of the greek above 90% convert to islam there will be a sepretist movement and plenty of people willing to fund it.

So to the OP yes it can be crushed but cant be held. But if by some form of luck it is held it will be constant problam because your having an entire country and a people ready to become the 5th column at the first chance they get or when the ottomans are bussy with some else.

Really? Does it have to be a violent revolution? I'm sure the Ottomans would've preferred to give the Greeks independence in exchange for peace and maintenance of their borders.
 
It's not actually that difficult to get the Greek revolution to fail. The Greeks were incredible disunited, and often fought each other more than they fought the Ottomans. Financially the Greeks had little ability to support themselves and their revolution, and were only saved thanks to foreign loans. ( Which were mismanaged ).
 
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The Russians will probably try and liberate the nations of the Balkans in order to gain their support in case Russia ever went to war with the West.
 
ASB. It was easy for the Ottomans to defeat the Greeks and would have done so if it wasn't for foreign intervention. The leaders are going to be executed but enslavement, talk about overboard.

The rebels could face execution and enslavement. The Greek population won't.

To have the revolt fail is too easy to even bother with. Just have no intervention by the Powers. Or, have Mahmud II more correctly assess which threat was worse. Ali of Janina seemed a bigger problem at the time, but he should have crushed the Greeks first, and then moved against Ali. If he had done that, he could have made Ali expend resources to defeat the Greeks, then been able to focus on him without the fear of intervention.
 
No classical greek fan boys in europe or have the revolt start earlyer while europe is bussy with the nepoleonic wars. But Greek independence is inevitable there going to break of. They had been bitten bu the bug of nationalism. Even if the ottomans crush the revolt which is easy the euro's will never let such a potential threat to ottoman territorial integrity left un tamperd. Unless by some magical luck the majority of the greek above 90% convert to islam there will be a sepretist movement and plenty of people willing to fund it.

So to the OP yes it can be crushed but cant be held. But if by some form of luck it is held it will be constant problam because your having an entire country and a people ready to become the 5th column at the first chance they get or when the ottomans are bussy with some else.

I'm not sure I agree. The success of the Greek Revolt is what got the whole nationalist ball rolling. There was no real Greek nationalism at the time - the initial revolt in the Morea wasn't about nationalism, it was about taxes (like most revolts) and other earthly matters.

There was a small cadre of nationalists, but they got no traction in their silly march from the Principalities. If the Revolt had been crushed, then who knows how things might go? That would leave all Greeks under Ottoman rule as the most prominent and powerful minority - they might have taken different routes of national development.

After all, it's a strange aspect of the 19th c that there was so little Greek nationalist agitation. The Greek elite of Istanbul and elsewhere had it good under the Ottoman system and wanted that to continue. In general, they had an "all or nothing" approach - they wanted to reconstitute the Byzantine Empire with Constantinople as the capital, or wait until the time was right to do this, not set up little statelets like Greece.
 
I'm not sure I agree. The success of the Greek Revolt is what got the whole nationalist ball rolling. There was no real Greek nationalism at the time - the initial revolt in the Morea wasn't about nationalism, it was about taxes (like most revolts) and other earthly matters.

There was a small cadre of nationalists, but they got no traction in their silly march from the Principalities. If the Revolt had been crushed, then who knows how things might go? That would leave all Greeks under Ottoman rule as the most prominent and powerful minority - they might have taken different routes of national development.

After all, it's a strange aspect of the 19th c that there was so little Greek nationalist agitation. The Greek elite of Istanbul and elsewhere had it good under the Ottoman system and wanted that to continue. In general, they had an "all or nothing" approach - they wanted to reconstitute the Byzantine Empire with Constantinople as the capital, or wait until the time was right to do this, not set up little statelets like Greece.
You know, this could have interesting long-term ramifications. Sometime in the mid to late 19th century the Phanariotes manage to get enough of the Muslim/Armenian/Jewish/Arab intelligencia on the same page and try to push through a Constitution akin to the ones in Western Europe (come to think of it, that is more or less what happened, however without the mess in the Balkans it would go more smoothly),

HTG
 
I'm not sure I agree. The success of the Greek Revolt is what got the whole nationalist ball rolling. There was no real Greek nationalism at the time - the initial revolt in the Morea wasn't about nationalism, it was about taxes (like most revolts) and other earthly matters.

There was a small cadre of nationalists, but they got no traction in their silly march from the Principalities. If the Revolt had been crushed, then who knows how things might go? That would leave all Greeks under Ottoman rule as the most prominent and powerful minority - they might have taken different routes of national development.

After all, it's a strange aspect of the 19th c that there was so little Greek nationalist agitation. The Greek elite of Istanbul and elsewhere had it good under the Ottoman system and wanted that to continue. In general, they had an "all or nothing" approach - they wanted to reconstitute the Byzantine Empire with Constantinople as the capital, or wait until the time was right to do this, not set up little statelets like Greece.


Abdul, I recall in one of your threads that the Ottoman Empire in the decades prior to its collapse was trying to develop a separate Ottoman identity that superseded religious affiliation or language or ethnic groups in order to keep its Balkan territories at the very least cohesive somewhat similiar to the idea of being an American citizen now. And you are right, the Greeks held a prominent position in the Ottoman Empire.
 

Don Grey

Banned
I'm not sure I agree. The success of the Greek Revolt is what got the whole nationalist ball rolling. There was no real Greek nationalism at the time - the initial revolt in the Morea wasn't about nationalism, it was about taxes (like most revolts) and other earthly matters.

There was a small cadre of nationalists, but they got no traction in their silly march from the Principalities. If the Revolt had been crushed, then who knows how things might go? That would leave all Greeks under Ottoman rule as the most prominent and powerful minority - they might have taken different routes of national development.

After all, it's a strange aspect of the 19th c that there was so little Greek nationalist agitation. The Greek elite of Istanbul and elsewhere had it good under the Ottoman system and wanted that to continue. In general, they had an "all or nothing" approach - they wanted to reconstitute the Byzantine Empire with Constantinople as the capital, or wait until the time was right to do this, not set up little statelets like Greece.

Well i just belive nationalism is inevitable. Though i know the greeks were not essentialy driven by it nationalism it was still in its infancy in greece. But was still there. With the constant medeling of ottoman internal affairs by great powers i find that a rich influencial greek minority is a good base to stir up trouble. Thats what i would have done it i was russia,france,britian.

Whats going to happen when ww1 comes along? You cant use them in the military because the christians dont want to fight and you would be just arming and training the 5th column (IIRC the ottomans tried it didnt work).So now you have a large group of monolithic greeks that dont pay jizyre tax that dont serve in the military but still get have the oppurtunity for equal representation and you have turks dieing by the thousands (in diffrent wars trying to save the empire) as they sit on there colective asses doing nothing. To make them happy and loyal (as long as it suits them) you would have to creat a privlaged cast that would piss of every on else of.Hell even the arabs faught in the mid east campaigns but not with the same moral as the turks.Unfortunatly even though the ruling classes were mult-cultural,mutli-ethnic and multi-religious only the turks saw the ottomans as there empire/state that needed to be defended at all costs holding the lines to the last man and the last round.

You know theres a saying in turkish "everyones goods friends on a good day". But whats going to happen when a rainy day shows up. Even the armenians were nicknamed "the loyal people" then look what happen and even in turkey today still have the kurdish problam even though kurds have no written history can hardly understand each other when talking kurdish and are forced to use turkish to communicate and dont even get along to well either with each other.

How long do you think this comercial of benneton that is the ottomans empire last?

You must have a common identity that makes the former ethnic one null and void.Speaking a common langauge helps too.

Abdul, I recall in one of your threads that the Ottoman Empire in the decades prior to its collapse was trying to develop a separate Ottoman identity that superseded religious affiliation or language or ethnic groups in order to keep its Balkan territories at the very least cohesive somewhat similiar to the idea of being an American citizen now. And you are right, the Greeks held a prominent position in the Ottoman Empire.

Yes there were. It was brought up by the group was called the "young ottomans". They employed the idea of ottomanism all people living with in the borders of the empire were equal citizen and ottomans (its a bit more complicated then that but im just explaining it in simple manner). But when no groups of christians were willing to fight for the state to save it and the christians lands were lost (sure some were find living in it but non was willing die for it) the idea died out because it was useless.Most christian groups had ambitions of there own. Then came pan-islamism which also didnt live up to expectations. So after the war was lost and nothign left but turkish lands out of necessaty came turkish nationalism.
 
Well i just belive nationalism is inevitable. Though i know the greeks were not essentialy driven by it nationalism it was still in its infancy in greece. But was still there. With the constant medeling of ottoman internal affairs by great powers i find that a rich influencial greek minority is a good base to stir up trouble. Thats what i would have done it i was russia,france,britian.

Whats going to happen when ww1 comes along? You cant use them in the military because the christians dont want to fight and you would be just arming and training the 5th column (IIRC the ottomans tried it didnt work).So now you have a large group of monolithic greeks that dont pay jizyre tax that dont serve in the military but still get have the oppurtunity for equal representation and you have turks dieing by the thousands (in diffrent wars trying to save the empire) as they sit on there colective asses doing nothing. To make them happy and loyal (as long as it suits them) you would have to creat a privlaged cast that would piss of every on else of.Hell even the arabs faught in the mid east campaigns but not with the same moral as the turks.Unfortunatly even though the ruling classes were mult-cultural,mutli-ethnic and multi-religious only the turks saw the ottomans as there empire/state that needed to be defended at all costs holding the lines to the last man and the last round.

You know theres a saying in turkish "everyones goods friends on a good day". But whats going to happen when a rainy day shows up. Even the armenians were nicknamed "the loyal people" then look what happen and even in turkey today still have the kurdish problam even though kurds have no written history can hardly understand each other when talking kurdish and are forced to use turkish to communicate and dont even get along to well either with each other.

How long do you think this comercial of benneton that is the ottomans empire last?

You must have a common identity that makes the former ethnic one null and void.Speaking a common langauge helps too.



Yes there were. It was brought up by the group was called the "young ottomans". They employed the idea of ottomanism all people living with in the borders of the empire were equal citizen and ottomans (its a bit more complicated then that but im just explaining it in simple manner). But when no groups of christians were willing to fight for the state to save it and the christians lands were lost (sure some were find living in it but non was willing die for it) the idea died out because it was useless.Most christian groups had ambitions of there own. Then came pan-islamism which also didnt live up to expectations. So after the war was lost and nothign left but turkish lands out of necessaty came turkish nationalism.

It's mostly because by the 1900s, they lost most lands that had a Christian majority so they needed to play up the Caliphate card. Make the population more or less even between the Christians, Muslims, Jews and everyone else, and I think you can have room for an Ottoman identity to grow kind of like Yugoslavia except without anyone dominating.

Maybe I can do a time-line on this.
 

Don Grey

Banned
It's mostly because by the 1900s, they lost most lands that had a Christian majority so they needed to play up the Caliphate card. Make the population more or less even between the Christians, Muslims, Jews and everyone else, and I think you can have room for an Ottoman identity to grow kind of like Yugoslavia except without anyone dominating.

Maybe I can do a time-line on this.

I would realy like to see a good TL on this. But it would need to start realy early atleast in the year 1800. And must win the battle of 1877. The balkans are the most populated area and richest. And the ottoman had a manpower problam.So some how getting the christians join the military with a comman identity would add the needed stability and manpower to stop the loss of land and maybe if the system works gain more.
 
I would realy like to see a good TL on this. But it would need to start realy early atleast in the year 1800. And must win the battle of 1877. The balkans are the most populated area and richest. And the ottoman had a manpower problam.So some how getting the christians join the military with a comman identity would add the needed stability and manpower to stop the loss of land and maybe if the system works gain more.

I am considering a time-line on the Ottoman Empire. It will not be a wank as in most time-lines dated to the nineteenth century Ottomans since they already had the potential to be an economic power-house in the region. I'm thinking that a POD would work better around the 1830s or 1840s around the time of the Greek Revolution and the ascension of wali Muhammed Ali of Egypt. I need some help since I am not much of an expert when it comes to the late Ottoman Empire. They might have to lose some lands in the process.
 
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