AH challenge: Novgorod Republic survives

Hendryk

Banned
Emphasis on Novgorod rather than Republic, actually. The challenge is about keeping Novgorod the center of a large independent polity, whether a separate country from the rest of Russia, or as the nucleus of an alternate Russia.

Rus-1015-1113.png
 

Philip

Donor
Maybe if the Great Stand would have gone better than for the Golden Horde? Combined with support for Novgorod from a merchant power, this could leave Novgorod (semi-)independent.
 
According to wikipedia, the reason that Novgorod fell was because Muscovy had control of the city's grain supply, and used this leverage to effect an overthrow of the Republic's government.

I have read in other places that the common people of the city resented the merchant-princes rule and aided Muscovy in overthrowing the city's government.

Perhaps Novgorod actually joins the Hansa, and this could lead to continued independence? Perhaps Novgorod uses German settlers (always a popular people when you need to skilled pioneers in Eastern Europe) to settle some of the more fertile lands that Novgorod controls, and builds its own agricultural hinterland? I think that is the key for Novgorod's success. Maybe Novgorod behaves more like Venice, and manages to get its hinterland quite loyal, and uses these good policies to overthrow some of the lesser princely states and bring them into the Republic?
 
if you go further back, to when Novgorod was Holmgard, a viking settlement, have the Rus' Khaganate not attempt to convert to Christianity, so the Finns and Slavs don't rebel. this would keep Holmard aka Novgorod as the largest city in Russia, and the central city of any future Rus' polity.
 
if you go further back, to when Novgorod was Holmgard, a viking settlement, have the Rus' Khaganate not attempt to convert to Christianity, so the Finns and Slavs don't rebel. this would keep Holmard aka Novgorod as the largest city in Russia, and the central city of any future Rus' polity.

That is a rather gross example of enduring empire don't you think? Maybe you could have Novgorod as the center of a Russian polity, but one thing that you run up against is that Russia is HUGE and until you have more developed politics (and that would include the choice of either Islam or Christianity as the state religion) you can't build the permanent political structures that are needed to say something like: "Well Novgorod will be the center of Russian polity, and beat the hell out of everyone for CENTURIES."
 

Hendryk

Banned
That is a rather gross example of enduring empire don't you think? Maybe you could have Novgorod as the center of a Russian polity, but one thing that you run up against is that Russia is HUGE and until you have more developed politics (and that would include the choice of either Islam or Christianity as the state religion) you can't build the permanent political structures that are needed to say something like: "Well Novgorod will be the center of Russian polity, and beat the hell out of everyone for CENTURIES."
Yeah, I didn't set any specific requirements, but I'd rather the POD be no earlier than the 12th century, when Novgorod developed a distinct social and political culture.

...... Damn me and my inability to read what I assume is Russian
Sorry, only map I could find. I don't read Cyrillic either, but I find it close enough to Greek that I can make guesses.
 
Yeah, I didn't set any specific requirements, but I'd rather the POD be no earlier than the 12th century, when Novgorod developed a distinct social and political culture.
IMO one possible POD would be to have Wladislaw of Varna not killed in the battle of Varna.In this case the Eastern policy of Great Duchy of Lithuania would remain more active.
 
Legend:
pink: borders of Kievan Rus 1015 AD (G=God=year, in this instance=AD)
red dot-dash: borders of ?gosudarstv? 1113AD
red-dash: borders of territories, ?districts? of Kievan Rus, something something something
green dash: borders of ?various? lands (principalities) of ??? of Yaroslav Mudor
green dots: borders of ??? principalities
 
Legend:
red dot-dash: borders of ?gosudarstv? 1113AD
borders of states (gosudarstvo - state)
red-dash: borders of territories, ?districts? of Kievan Rus, something something something
borders of territories dependent on Kievan Rus´
green dash: borders of ?various? lands (principalities) of ??? of Yaroslav Mudor
borders of main principalities under division of Yaroslav the Wise 1054AD
green dots: borders of ??? principalities
borders of some principalities (there is used word "udel" which I cannot translate corectly. It means some principality under suzerainty of another prince)
 

Glen

Moderator
I like the concept. Mayhaps it would be helped if there's no Mongols riding into the West?
 

Hendryk

Banned
Mayhaps it would be helped if there's no Mongols riding into the West?
Something involving the Mongols seems a likely option, but butterflying them away altogether might be overkill. Perhaps if they retreat earlier from Muscovy and don't let the place become a regional center under their overlordship, or, in the contrary, they stay longer and check its growth before it becomes powerful enough to be a threat to Novgorod?
 

Thande

Donor
Nice map. It drives home the political messiness of late medieval Europe...

In that era, it makes more sense to list lands by their ownership by an individual, rather than trying to make modern states out of them.

I always think the Black and White Sheep Turks are the result of tampering by time-travelling Sheepist AH.commers :D

Incidentally, I wonder if the 'Indian argument' also applies to Russia - would Russia have ever unified if its little warring states hadn't been flattened and occupied by the Mongols for a while?
 
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