How about a Scandinavian Empire replacing Russia?Justin Pickard said:Right ho. Is there any way we can prevent Vladimir / Muscovy from overrunning Novgorod, Smolensk, Kiev, Tver etc. in order to form the OTL Russia that we all know and love?
What do you think would take its place? A confederation of 'Russian' states? An uber-Novgorod? Poland-Lithuania?
Diamond said:I am presently working on a TL where Kiev remains stable and strong and acts as a counterweight to Novgorod. Muscovy remains a minor player and its lands are eventually absorbed by the two forming rivals in north and south Russia.
My thought is to have Novgorod build dynastic links with Sweden, forming an empire centered around the Baltic, while Kiev concentrates on the south, perhaps ending up in control of Constantinople and the Balkans.
I like that idea. Who in the end, gets Siberia?Diamond said:I am presently working on a TL where Kiev remains stable and strong and acts as a counterweight to Novgorod. Muscovy remains a minor player and its lands are eventually absorbed by the two forming rivals in north and south Russia.
My thought is to have Novgorod build dynastic links with Sweden, forming an empire centered around the Baltic, while Kiev concentrates on the south, perhaps ending up in control of Constantinople and the Balkans.
Wendell said:I like that idea. Who in the end, gets Siberia?
To answer that from wikipedia:MarkA said:I still do not fully understand why Kiev Rus was so fragile in the first place. In realtion to its neighbours it was the most advanced militarily, socially, culturally and had a literacy rate way above anywhere in Europe outside of Byzantium. Given another century of uninterrupted advances it may have been able to unite the other principalities into a stable state.
wikipedia said:Kievan Rus′ was not able to maintain its position as a powerful and prosperous state, in part because of the amalgamation of disparate lands under the control of a ruling clan. As the members of that clan became more numerous, they identified themselves with regional interests rather than with the larger patrimony. Thus, the princes fought among themselves, frequently forming alliances with outside groups such as the Polovtsians, Poles, and Hungarians. During the years from 1054 to 1224 no less than 64 principalities had a more or less ephemeral existence, 293 princes put forward succession claims, and their disputes led to 83 civil wars.
The Crusades brought a shift in European trade routes that accelerated the decline of Kievan Rus′. In 1204 the forces of the Fourth Crusade sacked Constantinople, making the Dnieper trade route marginal. As it declined, Kievan Rus′ splintered into many principalities and several large regional centers: Novgorod, Vladimir-Suzdal, Halych, Polotsk, Smolensk, Chernigov (modern Chernihiv), and Pereyaslav. The inhabitants of those regional centers then evolved into three nationalities: Ukrainians in the southeast and southwest, Belarusians in the northwest, and Russians in the north and northeast.
What Souyz posted, and more: their abominable "ladder" succession system advanced their strife to the levels truly horrible.MarkA said:I still do not fully understand why Kiev Rus was so fragile in the first place. In realtion to its neighbours it was the most advanced militarily, socially, culturally and had a literacy rate way above anywhere in Europe outside of Byzantium. Given another century of uninterrupted advances it may have been able to unite the other principalities into a stable state.
Fine-tuning the political situation in the Golden Horde's Vassal States to put another into leadership is easy (many more familiar with the period speak of Tver as being a more likely candidate than Muscovy), but I suspect you are looking for something differentJustin Pickard said:Right ho. Is there any way we can prevent Vladimir / Muscovy from overrunning Novgorod, Smolensk, Kiev, Tver etc. in order to form the OTL Russia that we all know and love?
Depends a lot on the presice POD. If the principalities in question are kept apart or subsumed into the Golden Horde outright then an expansive Novgorod is a very likely result....Justin Pickard said:What do you think would take its place? A confederation of 'Russian' states? An uber-Novgorod? Poland-Lithuania?
Slavic yes.NFR said:Despite the extremely personally distateful possibility, winking Russia as we know it out is painfully easy. Anything from Kiev to the Tatars to Khazars to Scythes have a decent shot at disappearing her before she even existed, though some sort of Orthodox Slavic state would likely have risen in the area regardless.
No, it is not. How would you feed it? Many AH builders dismiss the simple fact that Novgorod was VERY dependent on imported grain.htgriffin said:If the principalities in question are kept apart or subsumed into the Golden Horde outright then an expansive Novgorod is a very likely result....
HTG
Trade of course. First with the Khanate and later via the Baltic.serebryakov said:No, it is not. How would you feed it? Many AH builders dismiss the simple fact that Novgorod was VERY dependent on imported grain.
Would an expansion to secure that grain then not be very likely?serebryakov said:No, it is not. How would you feed it? Many AH builders dismiss the simple fact that Novgorod was VERY dependent on imported grain.
Poland-Lithuania or the Teutonic Knights would probably have a better shot. (Russia is pretty far from the Ottoman Power base…)Smaug said:What about those pesky Ottomans. What if they took a right turn in Bulgaria?
If they had concentrated in Russia for a time, who knows?