AH Challenge: Mussolini stays a socialist.

The challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have Benito Mussolini remain a member of the Italian Socialist Party instead of creating fascism. What happens ITTL? Would a different analogue to it come to existence anyway? Would modern-day socialists admire Benito Mussolini as a leader of Italian socialism? :D
 
The problem was the PSI was pacifist, and Mussolini's war experience made him into a militarist (or as he called it trench-socialism). Really given the rise of Communism, broad public opposition to the mangled peace for Italy, I imagine had he been patient he could have taken over a rump social-democrat PSI with a revanchist bent - however how far that would have got him is interesting - the King would probably have backed a strongman of some kind eventually, the Depression if it happens might trigger left-wing and democratic unrest, and Mussolini with his power-hungry demagoguery and pragmatism might end up leading Italy, possibly a Republic? Ironically without the Fascist Party, Italo Balbo might end up a Liberal Republican leader by the 1930s either an opponent of Mussolini, ally or more likely a partner in overthrowing Savoy Italy and then rival for the top job.

Interesting possibilities - you might get civil war but I doubt it, while relations with Yugoslavia, Albania and Abyssinia in a revanchist, turmoiled democracy is key to Italy in the 1930s.

Also no Fascist Party, a lot of far-right symbolism and inspiration will disappear - there will still be uniformed marches and street fighters but no roman salute, no blackshirts (the Germans will probably stick to Freikorps grey.

Still alot will still come through - Mussolini kicked it off and inspired many but really the basics strike as obvious for militant radical-populist groups post-WWI
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Mussolini probably won't be anything special. If he stays a socialist he won't join the army, continue editing Avanti!, and likely join one of the workers councils that sprung up during the Red Years. Perhaps he'll join one of the Leftist paramilitary groups that clashed with the fasci. You probably see someone like d'Annunzio or Giuriati taking over. This movement will, of course, be a much different fascism than OTL's since it will be more decentralized.

Mussolini probably ends up getting killed, jailed (where there's a good chance he'd be killed), or he flees the country for France or Germany. He'd probably go to Spain once the Second Republic is founded due to Mussolini's strong anarcho-syndicalist leanings. In fact, I think there's a good chance that he fights for the Anarchists during the SCW. I think that'd be a really fun scenario :D
 
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Even before Italy entered the Great War he was at odds with the Socialists over his interventionist stance. He was also highly influenced by Coradini's authoritarian nationalism and, conversely, radical syndicalism. He merged these schools OTL in fascism.

In order to keep him Socialist you probably have to keep Italy out of the war and then have him either a) manage to mend the bridges with the more internationalist, non-interventionist party, or b) have him more astute politically earlier and have him take over as the Socialist front man and drive the internationalist/anti-interventionist wings out.

The former leads to Wolfpaw's scenario, only I doubt we see Grandi or Balbo or anyone else as *Duce. Probably a continuation of the Liberal State with a few more crazy factions in the mix (the various pieces that OTL Mussie would unite into Fascism) and some notable instances of violence. If anyone takes over Mussie-style in this scenario it's Coradini's Blue Shirts.

The latter, maybe we see a Red March on Rome or more centralized *Biennio Rosso, but being by nature a Red Threat it's highly unlikely to receive the tacit approval of King and Army, leading to a short-lived Red Uprising that's brutally repressed by the Army. Perhaps Balbo ITTL leads one of the "loyalist" militias in clashes with Mussolini's Reds. :D
 
Even before Italy entered the Great War he was at odds with the Socialists over his interventionist stance. He was also highly influenced by Coradini's authoritarian nationalism and, conversely, radical syndicalism. He merged these schools OTL in fascism.

In order to keep him Socialist you probably have to keep Italy out of the war and then have him either a) manage to mend the bridges with the more internationalist, non-interventionist party, or b) have him more astute politically earlier and have him take over as the Socialist front man and drive the internationalist/anti-interventionist wings out.

The former leads to Wolfpaw's scenario, only I doubt we see Grandi or Balbo or anyone else as *Duce. Probably a continuation of the Liberal State with a few more crazy factions in the mix (the various pieces that OTL Mussie would unite into Fascism) and some notable instances of violence. If anyone takes over Mussie-style in this scenario it's Coradini's Blue Shirts.

The latter, maybe we see a Red March on Rome or more centralized *Biennio Rosso, but being by nature a Red Threat it's highly unlikely to receive the tacit approval of King and Army, leading to a short-lived Red Uprising that's brutally repressed by the Army. Perhaps Balbo ITTL leads one of the "loyalist" militias in clashes with Mussolini's Reds. :D

See the thing is before the outbreak of WWI *all* the socialist parties were pacifist. Most of them chose to embrace the war as opposed to holding onto the pacifism that they started out with. By the time Italy entered the war admittedly it was obvious World War I would be a bloody mess even if they won so holding on to pacifism made sense.

The idea of Mussolini in an ATL as an Italian Liebknecht is quite amusing, albeit.


That POD assumes Mussolini necessarily would succeed in a coup. I can't see a socialist Il Duce in the heartland of Roman Catholicism. The POD is more about the consequences of a timeline where Mussolini never becomes socialist, not any assumptions about what he would do.

Mussolini probably won't be anything special. If he stays a socialist he won't join the army, continue editing Avanti!, and likely join one of the workers councils that sprung up during the Red Years. Perhaps he'll join one of the Leftist paramilitary groups that clashed with the fasci. You probably see someone like d'Annunzio or Giuriati taking over. This movement will, of course, be a much different fascism than OTL's since it will be more decentralized.

Mussolini probably ends up getting killed, jailed (where there's a good chance he'd be killed), or he flees the country for France or Germany. He'd probably go to Spain once the Second Republic is founded due to Mussolini's strong anarcho-syndicalist leanings. In fact, I think there's a good chance that he fights for the Anarchists during the SCW. I think that'd be a really fun scenario :D

This is about what I'm thinking. Mussolini would be the Italian version of Liebknecht or Luxemburg: one of the early socialists purged by the fascist analogue. The interesting bit would be how people would interpret him later on.

The problem was the PSI was pacifist, and Mussolini's war experience made him into a militarist (or as he called it trench-socialism). Really given the rise of Communism, broad public opposition to the mangled peace for Italy, I imagine had he been patient he could have taken over a rump social-democrat PSI with a revanchist bent - however how far that would have got him is interesting - the King would probably have backed a strongman of some kind eventually, the Depression if it happens might trigger left-wing and democratic unrest, and Mussolini with his power-hungry demagoguery and pragmatism might end up leading Italy, possibly a Republic? Ironically without the Fascist Party, Italo Balbo might end up a Liberal Republican leader by the 1930s either an opponent of Mussolini, ally or more likely a partner in overthrowing Savoy Italy and then rival for the top job.

Interesting possibilities - you might get civil war but I doubt it, while relations with Yugoslavia, Albania and Abyssinia in a revanchist, turmoiled democracy is key to Italy in the 1930s.

Also no Fascist Party, a lot of far-right symbolism and inspiration will disappear - there will still be uniformed marches and street fighters but no roman salute, no blackshirts (the Germans will probably stick to Freikorps grey.

Still alot will still come through - Mussolini kicked it off and inspired many but really the basics strike as obvious for militant radical-populist groups post-WWI

One interesting consequence would be a more de-centralized fascism. This might well mean future butterflies for any German fascism. If it's less centralized it may well prove impossible for an ATL German fascism to take over the Weimar Republic, which after all saw off monarchists, commies, and the first fascist putsch.

Given Weimar was already rearming, I sometimes wonder if the Weimar Germany wouldn't have ultimately gone for revanchism anyway which would trigger a European war of some sort.
 
Given Weimar was already rearming, I sometimes wonder if the Weimar Germany wouldn't have ultimately gone for revanchism anyway which would trigger a European war of some sort.
Which could, I suspect. It is not a given that the the Republic would go for Sudetenland in annexation terms even if they are revanchist, and a Germany that pressed for increased autonomy and rights for their ethnic compatriots would seem somewhat less dangerous than the ones to take over said region. Add to that that the Republic wouldn't march into the rump even if the Sudeten ends up in their hands, and a revanchist Weimar could well end up going to war with Poland without that meaning a general European war. And once they have... no one cared about Slesvig, and Alsace-Lorraine would seem quite risky, especially to people not actually seeking a general European war. I suppose there is Memel, but they might get that in the Poland mess.
 
You would have to make sure that Mussolini's political thought wouldn't be too influenced by the odd conceptions of Georges Sorel's syndicalist theories or his interpretation of Nietzsche's philosophy. I think that most of this problem occurred after Mussolini ended up in Switzerland following his role in protests against the invasion of Libya, where the embryo of his future fascist ideology would take shape and be birthed as a result of WW I.

We can not underestimate his position as the chief editor of Avanti! though. Back in those days the editorship of Avanti! was a very good position in the socialist scene, almost on par with having an executive position in the PSI. It would have been possible to introduce yet another faction in the socialist infighting between the reformists and Marxists at the time. Now worker discontent would have been the same, Red Biennium and all, so the Fascist movement probably would have emerged in another form, d'Annuzzio or some military figure would take it up.

Now for those of you who play Hearts of Iron II, you might be familiar with a mod called Kaiserreich. Kaiserreich's background is one that of a Central Powers' victory in WW I. It supposes that as a part of this the Austrian-Hungarian empire, supported by a Germany fresh off the French defeat, starts their invasion of Italy. They overrun Northern Italy, but are met with a last-ditch popular resistance led by the socialists in the south of the country. For what ever reason this proves troublesome enough for the Austrian Army to stop their invasion of Italy, and leaving the socialists alone in south Italy, while setting up a puppet government in the North and annexing Venice straight in to the empire.

This scenario sees Mussolini siding with the Socialists as he falls back with the Italian army, it is in line with his nationalist views of an independent Italy and the resistance against the Central Powers, as he had felt IOTL, the reactionary monarchy of Austria-Hungary that was oppressing Italians. Naturally he fell in line with them seeing them as an independent, revolutionary Italy with the goal of taking back Italy from its occupiers. He leads a faction in the country called the "National-Syndicalists", and has aligned himself with Oswald Mosley (who didn't go fascist either ITL) in forming their doctrine of "Totalism" to safeguard and spread the revolutions in their countries.
 
National Syndicalist Italy. That'd be a nice TL.

Um...that's Fascism, actually. In theory a blend of Authoritarian Nationalism and Syndicalism, the latter formalized and bureaucratized into Corporativism.

See the thing is before the outbreak of WWI *all* the socialist parties were pacifist. Most of them chose to embrace the war as opposed to holding onto the pacifism that they started out with. By the time Italy entered the war admittedly it was obvious World War I would be a bloody mess even if they won so holding on to pacifism made sense.

The idea of Mussolini in an ATL as an Italian Liebknecht is quite amusing, albeit.

Yes, officially non-interventionist and internationalist. Like I said in the very post you quote (I'm wondering where you think I'm claiming otherwise :confused:). They opposed the Italo-Turkish war, Mussie among them. This is opposed to Mussolini's (and others') changing attitudes as the war started up (remember: Italy was Neutral for the first few months) and nationalist philosophies began to creep into socialist and syndicalist circles. The growing Interventionist bloc, including many socialists and syndicalists among it, would be the incubator for Fascism.

OTL they were purged from mainstream Italian socialism.

For your AHC I simply suggested some reconciliation with or takeover of the main non-interventionist mainstream socialist party by the Interventionists.
 
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