AH Challenge: Mexico the Superpower instead

That's good, love the POD. But would they still at least do some expansion in the Caribbean? OTL Santa Anna had plans on taking Cuba. Maybe with a more stable country it is eventually possible? Besides, the Mexicans could not be worse than the Spanish when it comes to Cuba, they might be welcomed there. After that I can see them making close ties with the Empire of Haiti to share domination of the Caribbean Sea.
 
But would they still at least do some expansion in the Caribbean? OTL Santa Anna had plans on taking Cuba. Maybe with a more stable country it is eventually possible?

I think it is quite possible. Cuba was part of the New Spain Viceroyalty. Mexico had already claimed Central America as its own even in OTL. Cuba seems like the most logical step to follow. And as you said Mexico can't be that much worse with Cubans and they probably will be seen as liberators at least initially.
I can see a sort of war of 1812 equivalent. In which Mexico tries to expand into the Caribbean while Spain is trying to hold on to its last territories in Latin America. Such a war can also serve as a way to introduce naval warfare in Mexico. Havana will also provide a second port to the Atlantic besides Veracruz.
Mexico's success might also make the US think twice before trying to annes a rebellious Texas... if Texas still rebels. I think at the eastern part of Texas will end in the US but Mexico should be able to hold on to a nice big chunk in this scenario.
 
Mexico could not become a super power it lacks the well the same work ethic This is not being racist this is a cultural thing where getting into industrial work was against the well upper class thinking picked up off the spanish empire and part of the reason why it declined

As soon as industrializion comes along they are boned. There are reasons why countries with engrained work ethics tend to do the best.

:rolleyes:Yeah, those damned lazy Aztecs and Mayans....hey wait a minute!

It's defintely a huge cultural bias pushed by lots of anti Catholic bigots or proponents of the Black Legend. Some were racist, some just religious bigots, some culturally biased. And you proved in some other threads to have some pretty wild fears and paranoia about Latinos.

Historian Arturo Rosales argued Mexico could have quite easily industrialized using textiles as a base. The two things that prevented that had zero to do with your claim that "lazy Mexicans" (a racist stereotype you fall for) were the problem. The problem was repeated foreign invasions and a ruling class that fought endlessly for personal advantage. Get rid of most criollo elites, or at least the worser ones, and you have an industralizing Mexico.
 
:rolleyes:Yeah, those damned lazy Aztecs and Mayans....hey wait a minute!

It's defintely a huge cultural bias pushed by lots of anti Catholic bigots or proponents of the Black Legend. Some were racist, some just religious bigots, some culturally biased. And you proved in some other threads to have some pretty wild fears and paranoia about Latinos.

Historian Arturo Rosales argued Mexico could have quite easily industrialized using textiles as a base. The two things that prevented that had zero to do with your claim that "lazy Mexicans" (a racist stereotype you fall for) were the problem. The problem was repeated foreign invasions and a ruling class that fought endlessly for personal advantage. Get rid of most criollo elites, or at least the worser ones, and you have an industralizing Mexico.
Yeah, I was going for the get rid of the criollo idea too.

Also right about dumb biases. Christ, Americans, if Mexicans are so goddamn lazy, how the hell are they taking your jobs?
 
: The two things that prevented that had zero to do with your claim that "lazy Mexicans" (a racist stereotype you fall for) were the problem. The problem was repeated foreign invasions and a ruling class that fought endlessly for personal advantage. Get rid of most criollo elites, or at least the worser ones, and you have an industralizing Mexico.

It is not entirely a stereotype (since they are all based on fact). Part of the "lazyness" also comes from a "so what" attitude: "If we've tried and tried and it has not work then why keep trying". That sort of thing. But as I said already such attitudes can easily be fixed in many ways as culture changes through time.

Secondly do not be too hasty on blaming the criollo elites. By the time of independence most of Mexico was either mestizo or criollo and many times it was very hard to tell on which group you belonged. The castas system although very prominent in the mid years of the colonial era (1600s) was really only a formality that did not reflect the reality in the late years of Spanish rule. The only part of it that was still very much in effect was the fact that the upper most posts in government were reserved for the Penisulares (Spaniards born in Spain). As I said there were some very rich and powerful mestisos and even some poor and unlucky criollos.

The problem is not that the elites are there. The US was after all an elite riddled country for a very long time. You also cannot take them out or make them disappear. Not only is this ASB they also have all the money so you will be starting with a bankrupted country.

The problem was that they simply disagreed on everything and each member of the elite was taking care of himself and himself only.

If you can somehow unify and make them agree early enough. Mexico can easily climb upwards and industrialize as it has the money and the resources.

An organized Independence movement would be the best way to make it happen. Either by prolonging the war or by making it fail and then start anew in an organized fashion.

The other important factor in question will always be competition against the United States. I possible solution (besides balkanizing it) would be to have the Oregon dispute against the UK turn into a war. The war (whatever the result) would sever most relationship between the US and the UK. Britain would be in need of a new trade partner and a new place to send all its starving Irishmen.

Mexico gets a start which is organized, has good relations with Europe, and a steady flow of immigration.
 
You kinda contradicted yourself there. You said the elites were not the problem, the problem was that they disagreed on everything and were out for themselves only, which is what we've been saying. If they had less power and/or weren't constantly fighting each other, and if there were less foreign invasions, I'm sure Mexico would be a lot more successful. Also, the fact that America was riddled with elites doesn't help your argument. The South was basically controlled by elites before the ACW. Much good it did us.

Another thing would be to keep the USA much weaker. Having the south win the ACW isn't enough because it is too late a POD. Instead, the Mexicans could be more Indian-friendly and help the likes of Tecumseh, Blue Jacket, and the Red Sticks. The Indian Wars only helped to increase US militarism which for all intents and purposes destroyed Mexico as a major power in the area. Even after the Mexican-American War the US, or at least enterprising American citizens, kept interfering in Mexican affairs. Hell, a ton of Marines even went to help the Yucatan against the Mayan rebels, though they ended up getting embarrassed and taking a ton of casualties.
 
You kinda contradicted yourself there.
Yeah I know, what I meant to say was that as long as they fight less it is ok to have elites. Many seem to simply blame them and think that without them everything is solved. Which I find incredibly naive. In the case of the US, it was an elite riddle nation. This did cause a Civil War but in the end with the appropriate measures their meddling was somewhat solved (they still meddle but less).

Another thing would be to keep the USA much weaker. Having the south win the ACW isn't enough because it is too late a POD. Instead, the Mexicans could be more Indian-friendly and help the likes of Tecumseh, Blue Jacket, and the Red Sticks. The Indian Wars only helped to increase US militarism which for all intents and purposes destroyed Mexico as a major power in the area. Even after the Mexican-American War the US, or at least enterprising American citizens, kept interfering in Mexican affairs. Hell, a ton of Marines even went to help the Yucatan against the Mayan rebels, though they ended up getting embarrassed and taking a ton of casualties.

I know the Civil War is a bit too late (unless you make it happen sooner). That is why I proposed turning the Oregon conflict with Britain into an Oregon War. This would happen sometime in the early 1840s. It is better if Britain wins closing the US off the Pacific. But even if the US wins and gains what is for us British Columbia it still lost a major trading partner. And if Mexico plays its cards right it gains a very strong ally, a trading partner needed for an export based economy (always a good thing), and an investor.

I also suspect Cuba would be annexed to Mexico sometime around here as well (with the help of its new ally).

Another option are the numerous Indian Wars that Mexico could unofficially sponsor during the removal (if it happens as in OTL). Although the removal ended by 1837/38, the Oklahoma equivalent could be a very strong ally of Mexico as well. It might even be set as a "buffer state" between both nations.

Then there is the Civil War. If the south wins, good. If the south balkanizes into several "cotton republics", better. If the south balkanizes into several "cotton republics" filled with inner strife that put stress in the US, much much better.

There is also a large black underclass (or slave class). The staunchly abolitionist Mexico could use both to stir rebellion in the US and as immigrants into Mexico.

Yes the Indian Wars helped increased US militarism. These other proposed wars could do the same (or the opposite as the US was also known for heavy isolationism and xenophobia in its early years). But Mexico will also be having similar wars that will help foster a Mexican militarism.

The Castas War might still happen (and it might include parts of Central America).
We also have a war against Spain to annex Cuba (maybe a second one much later to free the Philippines).
There will be, and must be, a Reform War at some point as well.
Finally it is my guess that Mexico will also suffer some Indian wars at some point. The Navajo in Alta-California / Arizona wont be to happy once Mexicans and Immigrants start moving there.
And I also considered the possibility of a Mormon War. Even after a Reform War, as in OTL that proclaims "freedom" of religion. I am very sure Mexicans will not be very nice to the Mormons in the north. Not just because of the religion issues but they might still see them as unwanted Americans. Honestly, I can see a Mormon genocide happening at some point. Even Mexico which professed equality and liberty for all since is independence (it failed in the equality part in OTL) would be capable of committing some sin. Plus we are talking of making it the major world power this does not necessarily mean a good one.

So yeah by the early 1900s both the US and Mexico are militarized and ready to face each other in a Great North American War.
 
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