AH Challenge: make the Unmentionable Seamammal mentionable

In the light of the debate around Blairwitch's TL, I came up with this. Your challenge is to make Operation Sealion work although there is less of a limit on the PoD. Any PoD after 1933 will go as far as I'm concerned. You can remove whoever you like except for Hitler himself (like for example Goering dying in a car crash so someone competent is in charge); Hitler himself as to live at least until January 1st 1940. Go! :D:p.
 
In the light of the debate around Blairwitch's TL, I came up with this. Your challenge is to make Operation Sealion work although there is less of a limit on the PoD. Any PoD after 1933 will go as far as I'm concerned. You can remove whoever you like except for Hitler himself (like for example Goering dying in a car crash so someone competent is in charge); Hitler himself as to live at least until January 1st 1940. Go! :D:p.

1933 pods allows far to much freedom for little admiral type stories not even a challange
 
In the light of the debate around Blairwitch's TL, I came up with this. Your challenge is to make Operation Sealion work although there is less of a limit on the PoD. Any PoD after 1933 will go as far as I'm concerned. You can remove whoever you like except for Hitler himself (like for example Goering dying in a car crash so someone competent is in charge); Hitler himself as to live at least until January 1st 1940. Go! :D:p.
Impossible, as far as I can tell...
 

nbcman

Donor
Would take a PoD prior to Mein Kampf. Hitler wanted to have an alliance with the Brits-and planning to invade the British was contrary to his writings.
 
Your challenge is to make Operation Sealion work although there is less of a limit on the PoD.


Onkel,

You've failed to appreciate that the problem isn't with Sealion per se. Instead fault is with the PODs that far too many well meaning posters have attempted to use.

As Blair correctly points out, a 1933 POD or a series of PODs beginning that early make Sealion wholly possible. It's when people suggest that Sealion can be launched with a POD after 1939 or with a POD that fails to create enough changes that the cries of Sea Mammal!!! arise.

In Decades of Darkness, Jared launched not one but two "Sealions". His POD is set in the early 19th Century however so his Sealions were completely plausible.

The fault lies in the PODs and not in Sealion itself.


Bill
 
Bill, I'm not even sure if an eraly 30's POD makes it easy - possible, but not easy. No matter what government is in power, you have to cope with the British mentality towards a strong naval challenge in home waters, and a shipbuilding base than can swamp the German one. So if they see Germany building up something that looks like it could actallly attack them, they are going to respond (no matter what government is in office, its one of those issue which kills governments who go against it)

So, possible with an early 30's PoD, not easy. Youd have to do something to affect the way the British look at potential naval enemies, which means the earlier the POD the better.
 
So, possible with an early 30's PoD, not easy. Youd have to do something to affect the way the British look at potential naval enemies, which means the earlier the POD the better.


Astro,

Agreed. The earlier the better, and the bigger the better too.

I'll state again though that the problems this board has with "Sealion" isn't with the invasion itself but with the unworkable, implausible PODs too many people repeatedly use.


Bill
 
So how could Sealion conceivably become true with a 1933 PoD then? You haven't answered that yet. :p

EDIT: Let me change the challenge. Make a German invasion of Britain in WW2 work with as late a PoD as possible.
 
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So how could Sealion conceivably become true with a 1933 PoD then? You haven't answered that yet. :p

EDIT: Let me change the challenge. Make a German invasion of Britain in WW2 work with as late a PoD as possible.

You would just need a few more clever commanders and some slight personality changes... General Weaver surviving would be first because even if his heavy bombers were not great he was a very clever staff officer who would have helped the Luftwaffe grow in a more balanced way and done something about the terrible lack of pilot training programs (fighters in particular)

You would need some German combined arms above average generals inserted at the okh and okw early (kietel, jodl, halder, beck, fristch and braustich were all firmly army generals with little appreciation for other services) In my tl's I always like to insert some combination of Kesselring, Ramcke, Rommel, Falkenhorst or Manstein who were very wordly and adaptable... Ramcke having perhaps the most diverse set of skills in the German officer corps

the germans need to recognize that from the moment they march into the rhineland england is an enemy and craft their fleet towards north sea/ channel control (lots of light craft since they will be operating in the range of their own air cover)

experiment with drop tanks in the spainish civil war and make serious adjustments to the landing gear of the me-109 after testing in spain causes it first round of accidents

dont make the ju 88 a dive bomber but instead craft it as a super fast level bomber/torpedo bomber

give priority to the engines of the fw-190 so it can enter service during the sitzkrieg

and during the 30's whilst light ships are being built develop a modestly sized force of infantry and tanks trained to operate amphibiously
 
How about mining the English Channel? That could at least temporarily give the Germans time to get their men across. This would have to be coupled with A) Proper landing craft and logistical craft and B) something to give German air superiority. This could be done with more advanced planes, or more planes.
 
How about mining the English Channel? That could at least temporarily give the Germans time to get their men across. This would have to be coupled with A) Proper landing craft and logistical craft and B) something to give German air superiority. This could be done with more advanced planes, or more planes.

The problem is the actual mining process. I don't think the Brits would just sit there in such an event. :rolleyes:
 
I wonder if you couldn't get it done by beefing up the Luftwaffe. First, improve their regular combat aircraft so that they can actually defeat the RAF (earlier jets?). Second, change their strategy so that they go after the RAF planes and airfields instead of randomly bombing London. Third, have them develop several wings of aircraft specifically for anti-shipping. After the fall of France, with airbases right there on the Channel, the Luftwaffe could use land-based air to keep a broad lane of the Channel clear of the RN. Of course, the Reich would also have to build some real landing craft for the first wave of troops going across the Channel.
Basically, you'd have to have the following scenario:
the Luftwaffe inflicts a serious defeat on the RAF, either destroying them in place or forcing them to shift up to the north.
The Luftwaffe next clears a lane in the Channel with both mines and aircraft.
The invasion force then moves in through this cleared lane, landing on Britain, with the goal of capturing a port so that regular German ships can land reinforcements.
I'm not expert enough to say if this would work or not, but it seems as if you'd have to have almost everything go right for the Germans and nothing go right for the Brits, and the chances of that seem unlikely....
 
-snip-

I'm not expert enough to say if this would work or not, but it seems as if you'd have to have almost everything go right for the Germans and nothing go right for the Brits, and the chances of that seem unlikely....

Not necessarily. Considering Allied superiority in materiel, men and resources, the fall of France and all those other quick victories in 1939-'41 would be declared uttery ASB in another TL, not to mention the stuff that happened between 1935 and 1939. They had tonnes of luck with Weserübung and the Battle of France while before that, several German generals had declared the Sickelschnitt plan as unworkable due to the terrain in the Ardennes. The luck Germany had in some parts of the war would seem ridiculous to anyone else.
 
How about mining the English Channel? That could at least temporarily give the Germans time to get their men across. This would have to be coupled with A) Proper landing craft and logistical craft and B) something to give German air superiority. This could be done with more advanced planes, or more planes.


Well, 3 problems.
First, the number of mines required is horrendous.
Second, nothing to stop the british clearing channels at night - the luftwaffe can do bugger all at night...
Third, even without (2), mines dont stop everything, though they can make life interesting.
 
The trouble with just beefing up various things prewar is it relies on the British and French doing nothing. Its much more difficult to hide what you are doing when your at peace. Plus, the German war economy was at full stretch (or actually overstretched, hence the ammunition crises...) - if your building something for SeaLion, you arent building something else you badly need.

I think the only way is to do a POD that alters something diplomatically, just changing builds will not, I think, work - unless you set the PoD so far in the past everything is changed...
 
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