I found this map when I was googling. Your challenge is to make the Roman Empire look like this:
AH challenge: make the Roman Empire look like this
- Thread starter Onkel Willie
- Start date
General Zod
Banned
Most reasonable PoD is the Romans crush Hermann at Teutoburg, and the drive to annex Germania continues unabated under Augustus and Tiberius. In a decade or two they crush the resistance of Germania and bring the border on the Vistula, in the following decade they conquer Dacia and stabilize the border on the Vistula-Carpathian-Dneister line which much shorter and more defensible.
Sometimg long the line, they invent the heavy plough, which makes land in Northen Europe much more valuable. As the new shorter border is stabilized, and the new provinces gradually Romanized, they have a lot of military power freed up. They use it in the following decade to conquer Britannia, Hibernia, and Nubia. Again assume, another decade of consolidation, pacification, and Romanization. Then the legions are ready for another venture. Let's also assume that the dynastic succession is somehow altered, so Rome does not suffer a major dynastic crisis and brief civil war after the death of Nero, or it is quick and relatively non-destructive a minor bump on the road. And the Roman commanders in this period are relatively competent, so no major Teutoburg or Carrae defeats. The Roman imperial elite remain confident and committed to classical Roman expansionism. They have achieved natural borders West, East, and South, and so they just have to settle the score SouthEast, with the Parthians. Another campaign, this time Rome is able to project most of her military potential against Parthia, since the Sarmatian border is shorter, and the population density of the barbarians beyond it, lower. So they win a major victory against Parhia, but not so groundbreaking that they are able to annex all of Mesopotamia, much less the whole Parthian Empire (that is the objective of the next campaign).
By teh way, where did you find this fine map ?
Sometimg long the line, they invent the heavy plough, which makes land in Northen Europe much more valuable. As the new shorter border is stabilized, and the new provinces gradually Romanized, they have a lot of military power freed up. They use it in the following decade to conquer Britannia, Hibernia, and Nubia. Again assume, another decade of consolidation, pacification, and Romanization. Then the legions are ready for another venture. Let's also assume that the dynastic succession is somehow altered, so Rome does not suffer a major dynastic crisis and brief civil war after the death of Nero, or it is quick and relatively non-destructive a minor bump on the road. And the Roman commanders in this period are relatively competent, so no major Teutoburg or Carrae defeats. The Roman imperial elite remain confident and committed to classical Roman expansionism. They have achieved natural borders West, East, and South, and so they just have to settle the score SouthEast, with the Parthians. Another campaign, this time Rome is able to project most of her military potential against Parthia, since the Sarmatian border is shorter, and the population density of the barbarians beyond it, lower. So they win a major victory against Parhia, but not so groundbreaking that they are able to annex all of Mesopotamia, much less the whole Parthian Empire (that is the objective of the next campaign).
By teh way, where did you find this fine map ?
I just googled 'map of the Roman empire'. BTW Does anybody think this Roman Empire would last longer? They have a shorter border in Europe but an equal sized or maybe even bigger army to defend it with. Can they withstand the barbarian hordes and the Huns? And could this empire expand even further possibly into Scandinavia after the Vikings start their annoying raids (if the Vikings aren't butterflied away). And what about Roman colonies in America? Could this empire survive long enough to pull that off?
There would still be wars with Parthia, and attack after attack by barbarians along the eastern border, and by sea from Scandinavia too... and by the Picts and whatnot in northern Britain... I think all that's a given, the ability of the empire to withstand it all depends on internal matters, which might be helped by this POD or might not possibly be helped by anything other than wanking.
-John
-John
General Zod
Banned
Absolutely, most Empathically, YES. They have a rather shorter border, much more population base and tax resources (after they invent the heavy plough, espeically), which means more legions. There are no more "barbarian hordes" anymore, in the classical Germanic sense, and rather less so of the Slavic sense. They are happy Romanized citizens now, beefing up the legions. There are only the monadic Sarmatians-Scythians in the Russian steppes, which have a much lower population density than the Germanics, and the unassimilated Scandinavian Germanics (by the way, with a map like this, I fully expect the conquest of Caledonia _Scotland_ to happen any time soon). Neither population block has the numbers to create a serious military problem for the Roman Empire. The Huns, the Mongols, or any other variously named major breakout of the Central Asian nomad population which happens once every few centuries could, but again, it happens once in a blue moon, it's not a constant pressure like the OTL Germanics. Therefore, the Huns could be withstood, or at most cause a dynastic shift as they install themselves on the throne (Attila as a Roman Emperor). Most likely the latter. Or the Huns trigger a phase of Imperial breakup. This Empire almost surely enters a Chinese Cycle of periodic dynastic crises, breakup and reunification, or permanently spliters between a "Carolingian" WRE and a "Byzantine" ERE, following the cultural divide between Greek and Latin, but never ever splits into a dozen nation-states. Western-Central Europe, as such, stays united. Without the barbarian hordes, there simply isn't the population base to create the national fragmentation of Europe. Plus, ITTL, the universalist ideal of Rome is too strong in the elites.
General Zod
Banned
Yes. OTOH, with borders like these, the Empire has still the potential to win more wars with Parthia. If this is 63 CE, who says they are not going to annex and Romanize Southern Mesopotamia by 80-100 CE, and conquer Persia during the Second Century CE ?
Honestly, more like light pinprick raid attempts, which the legions can easily deflect. The Sarmatians and the Norse don't have the manpower to do worse, unless the Empire is msotly dead on its own.
Pfft, that's trivial, if they care to annex Hibernia, Caledonia is next on the lsit within the next 10 years. The Picts have no hope.
This is entirely true, in the sense the Empire needs some serious internal reforms (such as the crreation of a scholar professional burraucracy in the Chinse model, or proto-capitalism expanding the urban trader class significantly, or the expansion of the Senate to give proto-Parliamentary representation to the porvincial elites, or a mix of the above), but the Romanization of Germania helps mightly since it ensures that almost any internal dynastic crisis shall not be terminal. Anyway, IMO the worst reasonable outcome is a permanent splitting of the Empire in WRE and ERE.
General Zod
Banned
AT the risk of upsetting everyone....If The Roman empire was like this, I'd expect the Romans to sail around a little more and Discover Iceland - and at least document it - a Romanized Iceland is a different matter altogether
Sissco
For that matter, at the risk of getting everyone's wank-senses tingling, I go forward adn state that, once they annex Scotland, and assimilate some Germanic shipbuilding and seafaring techniques over the decades, it is not unfeasible to assume that they get to follow the entire Norse Northern discovery chain, Iceland-Greenland-Vinland. Not in this century, but in the next one or two, it could well happen.
General Zod
Banned
YAY No more Viking Empire! YAY!! This made my day LOL
Admittedly the Romans were rather better than the Norse at colony-building, not to mention a little more organized, so when they build colonies in the American NorthEast, they thrive and expand instead of dying out.
JohnJacques
Banned
Admittedly the Romans were rather better than the Norse at colony-building, not to mention a little more organized, so when they build colonies in the American NorthEast, they thrive and expand instead of dying out.
There was never an example of them building a colony anywhere as underdeveloped as North America.
General Zod
Banned
Yep, but then again, it is reasonable to assume that the Romans would have better organizational skills, the whole culure is geared for that, and they also have rather better chances to keep in touch with the mainland and get soem help for the critical early growth stage. North America offers quite ample opportunity to get self-sustaining early. For one Roanoke, you have the rest of the USA and Canada.
JohnJacques
Banned
I'm inclined to disagree.
The Romans never came into a similar situation and set up a colony. They conquered militarily and then set up colonies.
Any Roman presence from a discovery of the new World would be subject fishermen and maybe merchants. They just weren't big on the settler thing except as state-directed.
Now, the Greeks are a different story.
The Romans never came into a similar situation and set up a colony. They conquered militarily and then set up colonies.
Any Roman presence from a discovery of the new World would be subject fishermen and maybe merchants. They just weren't big on the settler thing except as state-directed.
Now, the Greeks are a different story.
The problem is that the key shipbuilding innovations which allowed the Vikings to make the Atlantic crossing hadn't occurred at the time of this map, and won't happen until about 700 AD. So the idea of the Romans "assimilating Germanic shipbuilding and seafaring techniques" at this early date doesn't work. The Romans were actually more advanced in that area at this early date.
General Zod
Banned
Ahh, OK. Forgot of that
Then it's just an occurrence if this Roman Empire survives to butterfly away the Dark Ages (which is the by far most reasonable assumption, if only as the "Carolingian" WRE half, as this is concerned. OTOH, with a heavily Romanized Germania, whose development is anticipated by about eight centuries, it is not unreasonable to assume that such shipbuilding innovations are also seriously anticipated, with all the trade going around in the North Sea and the Atlantic. The same process that anticipates the development of the heavy plough.Nikephoros
Banned
I think I have seen this map before.
I think that their was a link to this site on the alternatehistory.com timelines page.
Rome Invicta.
I think that their was a link to this site on the alternatehistory.com timelines page.
Rome Invicta.
Could this lead to a technological stagnantation of a Roman Empire later on , ala the Ming Dynasty? Or would the Romans eventually push all the way to the Urals , and , later on ,Siberia and Central Asia becomes a heavily contested territory between a Chinese and Roman Dynasty, that soon spurs on a massive naval Race in the Indian Ocean as both dynastys attempt to outflank the other by Sea?
I am inclined to agree about the Romans not being colonizers. In the OT they never made real attempts to colonize, and they did have options. Along the Africa Coast (Modern Day Western Sahara) and so forth. For that matter the Romans never sent expiditions down the African coast or down the Nile/Red Sea Area. In this timeline they likely would have directed future attention at Parthia and the Old Conquests of Alexander, as the Roman upper classes had a hard on for Alex.
As for the map. How about.
Mark Antony wins the Roman Civil War by attacking on land at Actium. Afterwards he and Cleo attack Nubia and deal a blow to Parthia. Antony Campaigns elsewhere then dies. Egyptian manpower is added to the Roman sheet for the short term. Ceasarea continues his adopted fathers ambitions in Germany and so forth. Ceasarea is a great commader as he gets skills from both his manipulative mother and warlike father. The Romans conquer Germany by 14 AD. Dacia is invaded to bring the border in. Hibernia is taken in an independant campaign.
However this map comes about its hard to say what happens after this. The changes in Roman politics that would happen wth no German threat alone would be epic in scale. Also manpower wise the concentration of the Legions on 1 border with Russia might make for severe Civil Wars. I think the Empire does last longer but who knows.
As for the map. How about.
Mark Antony wins the Roman Civil War by attacking on land at Actium. Afterwards he and Cleo attack Nubia and deal a blow to Parthia. Antony Campaigns elsewhere then dies. Egyptian manpower is added to the Roman sheet for the short term. Ceasarea continues his adopted fathers ambitions in Germany and so forth. Ceasarea is a great commader as he gets skills from both his manipulative mother and warlike father. The Romans conquer Germany by 14 AD. Dacia is invaded to bring the border in. Hibernia is taken in an independant campaign.
However this map comes about its hard to say what happens after this. The changes in Roman politics that would happen wth no German threat alone would be epic in scale. Also manpower wise the concentration of the Legions on 1 border with Russia might make for severe Civil Wars. I think the Empire does last longer but who knows.
By the 2~3 century the Picts were Romanized to a mere annoyance, If Rome lasts into the 6th Century They will be romanized into a peaceful client state.
The OP says Whe need the Borders to look like the Map lat the Height of Romes Power. not by any particular date.
POD
600 BC
OTL
Bob the Hunter encounters a Bear, and is Killed, this leads to his Wife and Son dieing of hunger, that winter.
ATL
Bob the Hunter encounters a Bear, and manages to kill it. Signaling the Village, They drag the bear back, and feast. Bob's Family survives the winter.
565 BC
Bobs-son Unites the tribes of Samaria, around the Crimea. over the next 25 years they will drive out the Greek Invaders.
About half of the Greeks that leave end up along the Northern Shore of Anatolia, the rest settle along The Eastern shore of the Balkans South of the Danube [ OTL Romania]
70's~60 BC
Caesar conquers Gaul, Pompey Conquers Moesia Inferior.
58 BC
Caesar invades Britannia
56
OTL
Caesar leaves Britannia, to fight Pompey.
ATL
Pompey is campaigning in Moesia Superior, so Caesar's conquest of Britannia continues.
50 BC
Caesar and Pompey meet in Civil War.
44
Caesar Assisinated
40 BC
Rome Conquers Egypt
10 BC
Bobs-Son a warlord in Samaria Minor, who Traces his Ancestry back to the original Bobs-son Starts Uniting the Tribes in Samaria Minor.
4 BC
Joseph of Nazareth a Carpenter marries Mary and Has a Son named Jesus.
4 AD
Samaria
2 BC
Bobs-son leads raids South of the Danube into Roman Territory
3 AD
Rome starts Campaigning in Samaria Minor.
8 AD
Three Legions are send to the Rhine Area, with orders to Defend the West Bank.
16 AD
Several Roman Legion are landed by Ship along the Dniester River. this allows them the Trap the Samaritans, In a Major Battle the Samaritans are Crushed, and Bobs-son is Killed.
Many Samaritans escape across the Dniester River, While Rome begins building a series of Fortifications and Walls along the West Bank.
33 AD
A Carpenter and Itinerant Preacher in Jerusalem, by the Name of Jesus is accused of Treason and Crucified.
Along the Rhine 4 Legions move to put down German Tribes that have been raiding west of the River
133 AD
Roman Legions Reach the Mouth of the Bug River, Begin moving South along the West Bank, building Fortifications and Walls.
While there will be a occasional Patrol across the Bug to retaliate for Raids, Rome has no Interest in expanding any farther east.
179 AD
The Line of Fortifications and Walls headed South along the Bug, Meets the line of Fortifications and Walls headed North along the Dniester.
237 AD
At the Request of the Pictish Client State of Caledonia, 2 Legions head West to Hibernia. Over the next 40 Years, Rome will Occupy the entire Island.
250
The Roman Navy/Marines Patrolling of the Red Sea Leads to a Upgrade and expansion of the Nile Canal. The Roman control of the Nubian Coast leads Rome to Expand south from Egypt into Nubia.
I like expect you put the name Bob in it which i dont think is name of common use in that age...