AH Challenge: Make New Netherlands survive to the present day

In the late 17th century OTL, the Dutch rulers of New Netherlands surrendered to the British who renamed the state New York.

What would have to happen for the Dutch to triumph over the English?

Would OTL continental USA balkanize into separate countries?

Discuss.
 
The name was actually New Netherland, without the "s."

And I don't see why the US would balkanize, because IIRC the English had already established colonies in Massachusetts Bay and in Virginia. So the Dutch are surrounded on all sides by English colonies, with nowhere to expand. Even if somehow this colony manages to survive every other war for the next four hundred years, the rest of the continent would be either English or French.
 
What about some kind of compromise where New Netherland is a kind of Quebec-like State in the USA, a majority Dutch state where Dutch is spoken along with English as a state language and the USA develops with an even more diverse assortment of cultures. That would be very plausible and very interesting--you could even make Pennslyvania a German state and New Jersey a Swedish State. Throw in a Spanish Florida, a French Quebec, and a Black Haiti and you've got one heck of multicultural state on your hands.
 
It'd probably be more like Louisiana, if the US happens at all.

What was that guys name...? Stuyvesant? Something like that. The one with the wooden leg and attitude problem. Get rid of him. New Amsterdammers handed the keys over to the English so they wouldn't have to deal with him.

I exaggerate, but not much if I'm accurately remembering something I learned many years ago.
 
You're really not exaggerating. He had to flee the city in drag because the Dutch citizens were gunning for him.
 
Part of the problem with it remaining culturally (and hopefully linguistically) Dutch is one of numbers. English colonists kept encroaching into the Dutch-claimed area before the English took control, and began settling in much larger numbers once it was legally English. Unless you can boost the number of Dutch settlers in the area and have the English authorities on either side (i.e. New England and 'greater' Virginia) co-operate with New Netherland's authorities in keeping anglophone settlers out, the area is likely to be swamped by English Americans.

Also, the colony was never seen as an end in itself by the WIC (Dutch West India Company) and the States-General. Its main purposes were to support fur trapping further up the Hudson valley, and to provide a victualling station for WIC privateers returning from the Caribbean to the Netherlands. I feel you'd need backing, both political and financial, from the Dutch nobility before New Netherland could boast de facto as well as de jure control over the area it claimed.

That said, however, if you could keep New Netherland as a going concern, it will most definitely lead to a division of the English colonies into two separate cultural units. Even OTL there are distinct cultures in New England, the ex-New Netherland states, and the Upper and Deep South (Virginia southwards). With a separate polity acting as a bulwark between New England and 'Chesapeake-Bay-southwards', I honestly can't see a single American identity developing. Far more likely you'd end up with at least two: New Englander and Virginian/Columbian/some other catch-all term for the southern colonies/states.

I reckon that it's unlikely a surviving New Netherland would prevent major rebellions in the anglophone colonies, but I think it's likely they'd play out very differently. Major factors would be who held New Netherland, whether the dutch-speakers sided with or against any anglophone rebellions, and whether the two divided blocks of English colonies end up feeling enough of a common bond with each other to rebel together, or whether they'd view rebellion in one block as an opportunity to profit at that block's expense.

The trigger for any rebellions would also be important. If you have a major Virginian/southern rebellion triggered by something slave-related, for example the legal judgment in 1773(?) that made slave-holding illegal in England, then I imagine New England would be far less likely to rise with the southerners as their economy depended far less on slave-holding, IIRC.

***
PS: TL already under construction, it's just taking a while to filter out the handwavium :)
 
And I don't see why the US would balkanize, because IIRC the English had already established colonies in Massachusetts Bay and in Virginia. So the Dutch are surrounded on all sides by English colonies, with nowhere to expand. Even if somehow this colony manages to survive every other war for the next four hundred years, the rest of the continent would be either English or French.

Spanish Florida, French Louisiana, British Virginia, French Canada, British Massachussetts... hell, if you could pull off New Sweden, that'd be a nice touch. Why must there be only one supreme ruler of North America? It's not like any other colonial region was monopolized by a single nation- except for South America, and even there other colonial powers managed to keep scraps up to the present day.
 
Having a New Sweden exist alongside New Amsterdam would make the later's chances of survival greater. They'd slow down English Settlements into their territory and help shield each other. The problem would be that it would make wars more likely between the Dutch/Swedes and the English. You'd have to make the overall Dutch position stronger, or at least make them focus on the military more. Keeping the lowlands unified would be a major plus.
 
Spanish Florida, French Louisiana, British Virginia, French Canada, British Massachussetts... hell, if you could pull off New Sweden, that'd be a nice touch. Why must there be only one supreme ruler of North America? It's not like any other colonial region was monopolized by a single nation- except for South America, and even there other colonial powers managed to keep scraps up to the present day.

The general trend in colonization everywhere was for powerful or lucky states to absorb the smaller and weaker colonies. It happened in both Americas (Spain and Portugal absorbed the Scottish, German, Dutch, and French colonies in south America), in India (Britain removed most French, Dutch, Danish, etc influence in the region), and to a lesser extend Africa.

The problem with small colonies are that the nations usually don't have the means to defend them. New Sweden was not viable because of its location and small population. If the French owned Canada and Louisiana, they would be connected in the north and there would be no reason for them to divide. Spanish Florida would be part of the Mexican state.
 
The general trend in colonization everywhere was for powerful or lucky states to absorb the smaller and weaker colonies. It happened in both Americas (Spain and Portugal absorbed the Scottish, German, Dutch, and French colonies in south America), in India (Britain removed most French, Dutch, Danish, etc influence in the region), and to a lesser extend Africa.

The problem with small colonies are that the nations usually don't have the means to defend them. New Sweden was not viable because of its location and small population. If the French owned Canada and Louisiana, they would be connected in the north and there would be no reason for them to divide. Spanish Florida would be part of the Mexican state.

That is sort of correct, but if there is no war, then there is no conquest of the colonies. Remember that there where still French and Portugese outposts in India, when Great Britain controlled it and that the Netherlands and (I believe also Denmark) sold their last outposts there. Also the Guyanas and various caribean islands are also examples that what you say isn't always true.
I think that the best way to keep a New Netherlands is for the Netherlands not to have a war with England/Great Britain or have them win the wars. The Netherlands did fight 4 wars with England, it lost the first and won the second and third war.The fourth war is more than 100 years after the other three and irrelevant. The Netherlands could be able to keep the New Netherlands in these wars. This isn't as unlikely as some might think. In the first war it didn't lose the New Netherlands (or any other colony if I remember it correctly). In the second one the new netherlands was conquered by the English, who wanted to return it to the netherlands in the peace, but the Netherlands prefered Guyana. In the third the Netherlands reconquered the New netherlands, but didn't recieve it in the peace. If the Netherlands did a bit better in those wars, or a different peace is made, the Netherlands keeps the colony. Remember after the third Anglo-Dutch war the Netherlands and Britain remained allies for almost (or even more, not sure of that) a century. In that time the Netherlands will not lose the New netherlands. The fourth Anglo-Dutch war was directly related to the American revolution. That could easily butterflied away, or at least changed enough that the 4th Anglo-Dutch war can be avoided. Anyway in the mean time the New netherlands could have grown larger and gotten a more Dutch character. Maybe even getting most of the Germans who emigrated to the Americas. If it gets more of a Dutch character, you could get at worse get sort of a Dutch quebec.
 
Ok, Suppose the Republic of the Netherlands kept New Amsterdam and the surrounding lands after the reconquered it in 1673.
By that time the WIC was bancrupted and would not interfere anymore with trade and shipping.
It was this WIC which was a major obstacle for the development of the colony.
Already in 1652 Mr. Van Der Donckt pointed that out in a plea for the State General ( kind of pailement) for city rigths. Which was granted after the first Anglo/Dutch war. Unfortunatly it remains under control of the WIC.

No more monopolies of trade by a Tranding company, free trade, enterprises booming and colonists. Since the economic and political climate of the late 17th century become a bit worse for the inhabitants of the Dutch republic a small but considarable influx would happen, but most colonist would come as in OTL from the German lands, England, Ireland and the Spanish Netherlands.
The whole growth and development would almost be like OTL, only under Dutch spoken administration and a bit more liberal as under English, but not much more as in OTL.
The feeling of beeiing independent would come maby earlier or even originatd form this city and spread to the English dominions, since the Dutch Republic was more a kind of confederation than a central gouvernd Kingdom as England was.
Let asume it survived the Spanish succesion war and stayed neutral in the Seven years war ( French Indian war). This last would be an extreme profitable time for a city as New Amsterdam! Imagine selling suplies, weaponery, gunpowder and other suplies to both batling parties!
Than American revolution broke out, same buisines oportunity would occure. Only this time the city would draged into the war because one of the Seven Provinces, Friesland, found it necissary to recognise the newly indepentend United State of America. It was the time of enlightment and socila unrest in the republic. An other Anlo Dutch war, lost by the latter.
This would be an ocasion were New Netherland would join the United States as a part of it. If the city consil decided not the next oportunity would come with the occupation of the Netherlands by Napoleon.

New Amsterdam need to become a part of the USA. This would become the gate through which most of the colonist entered the new world. This city was different than the Puritain Boston or Philadelphia. It was different than the agriculture based states of the South. This city had the spirit of ''Old'' Amsterdam, free for other thinkers, and free for enterprise and making money regardless of your background!
If New York or New Amsterdam did not become a part of the USA, than the spirit of enterprice would be far less as it is today.
 
Ok, Suppose the Republic of the Netherlands kept New Amsterdam and the surrounding lands after the reconquered it in 1673.
By that time the WIC was bancrupted and would not interfere anymore with trade and shipping.
It was this WIC which was a major obstacle for the development of the colony.
Already in 1652 Mr. Van Der Donckt pointed that out in a plea for the State General ( kind of pailement) for city rigths. Which was granted after the first Anglo/Dutch war. Unfortunatly it remains under control of the WIC.

No more monopolies of trade by a Tranding company, free trade, enterprises booming and colonists. Since the economic and political climate of the late 17th century become a bit worse for the inhabitants of the Dutch republic a small but considarable influx would happen, but most colonist would come as in OTL from the German lands, England, Ireland and the Spanish Netherlands.
The whole growth and development would almost be like OTL, only under Dutch spoken administration and a bit more liberal as under English, but not much more as in OTL.
The feeling of beeiing independent would come maby earlier or even originatd form this city and spread to the English dominions, since the Dutch Republic was more a kind of confederation than a central gouvernd Kingdom as England was.
Let asume it survived the Spanish succesion war and stayed neutral in the Seven years war ( French Indian war). This last would be an extreme profitable time for a city as New Amsterdam! Imagine selling suplies, weaponery, gunpowder and other suplies to both batling parties!
Than American revolution broke out, same buisines oportunity would occure. Only this time the city would draged into the war because one of the Seven Provinces, Friesland, found it necissary to recognise the newly indepentend United State of America. It was the time of enlightment and socila unrest in the republic. An other Anlo Dutch war, lost by the latter.
This would be an ocasion were New Netherland would join the United States as a part of it. If the city consil decided not the next oportunity would come with the occupation of the Netherlands by Napoleon.

New Amsterdam need to become a part of the USA. This would become the gate through which most of the colonist entered the new world. This city was different than the Puritain Boston or Philadelphia. It was different than the agriculture based states of the South. This city had the spirit of ''Old'' Amsterdam, free for other thinkers, and free for enterprise and making money regardless of your background!
If New York or New Amsterdam did not become a part of the USA, than the spirit of enterprice would be far less as it is today.
Good Start, But a LOT of Butterflies would Need Stamping out First ...

Having a Dutch Colony in The Center of Britain's North American Colonies would be Extremely Disabling to them ...

At The Very Least it would Mean No Solidarity if Independence was Ever Mentioned, Plus it May Even Wind up Removing The Casus Belli for The 7 Years War Completely!

:eek:
 
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