AH Challenge: Japan Divided

Instead of creating that type of strong, unified Japan that we see quite often in scenario's and TL's,
this challenge is about creating a Japan that is divided into several different yet stable independant nations by the year 1850.

The POD is to be no earlier then the beginning of the Kamakura period in 1185.

Bonus points for strong states that influence international politics outside the Japanese islands.

Small lasting European colonies in Japan (like Hong Kong and Macau) get bonus points as well.
 
This should not be too hard. Rather, there are numerous interesting possibilities for what might occur.
 
A continuated independent Ryukyu kingdom would be an obvious suggestion for an independent nation within OTL Japan.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
How about if the Ryukyus get help from the Portugeuse when Satsuma goes to invade them. They subsequently become a Portuguese protectorate and from there a crown colony.

An uneasy peace results in Satsuma becoming even more independent from the Tokugawa than they were.

The problem here is that you're weakening Satsuma, which is your best candidate for rebellion from the Tokugawa and the separate statehood you're looking for.

Perhaps, though, you could have a reinvasion of the Ryukyus by Satsuma as Portugal declines in power. This might lead to a Satsuma rebellion as the war with Portugal shows how far behind the West the shogunate has fallen.

Satsuma would probably win against even a Portugeuse based Ryukyus in the late 1700s because of a weaker Portugal's supply difficulties to such a far flung place, while the Japanese still retained a great deal of their samarai effectiveness, population, and wealth advantages. The late 1700's were also, AFAIK, a period of some ferment among the daimyo, and ripe for a rebellion.

However, a problem here now becomes how to prevent a flintlock equipped Satsuma army from establishing a new Shogunate in their turn.

This does seem more difficult than at first glance. You could go back to well before the Tokugawa, but Japan's development under the Tokugawa was really unique, it's hard to see how you could have the Japanese retain many of their identifiable characteristics without at least some Edo/Isolation influences. My thought is they would become far more of an offshore tributary state of China than their own separate culture, like the various states of Southeast Asia, but without Indian influence.

What would happen if the Portugeuse, instead of running off when theri ship was burned, got their dander up and sent the biggest invasion fleet they could gather in 1640? (or thereabouts, not sure of the date).
 
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Considering that the Shogunate had rather modern armed forces at its command (somewhat contrary to perceived opinion), a French-built steam warship coming to mind, then one could posit a longer and more divisive so-called Meiji Restoration. It could be possible to have the remnants of the Shogunate hold out upon Hokkaido, for example.

With a weaker Japan, Okinawa/Ryukyu would remain in its ambiguous position as vassal to both China and Japan, and thus retain an outward independence.

Grey Wolf
 
Its funny, the more I look into this the more feasible it becomes, but everyone else seems to have dropped this thread ?

My thoughts with regard to Ezo are :-
-1- Did it leaders wish for or envisage independence for JUST Hokkaido, or were they really aiming to spread back South over all of Honshu ?
-2- Whatever their wishes, if they succeeded in stabilising themselves but failed in defeating the Meiji Restoration further South, how viable would a Republic of Ezo in its own right have been ?

Regarding the latter, there is evidently great French support, and it seems unlikely that France's defeat in 1870 would result in the end of France's support, as it didn't result in anything similar in Indo-China. It might cause a temporary blip, but if Ezo has just recently defeated Meiji, 1870 is too early for the latter to make a realistic attempt to gain revenge

This said, what difference would having a political world in this area consisting of :- Russian Empire, Chinese Empire, Republic of Ezo, Empire of Japan and Kingdom of Okinawa have made in the latter part of the 19th century ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Apart of the Ezo Republic, there was great resistance in Northern Japan to Meiji Forces, a coalition of northern Daymios of Honshu maintained the resistance during great part of 1868, if the resistance had been more extended could be we would be talking about a North Japanese Shogunate and a South Japanese Empire.

A toughest Civil War of 1868-69 could have ended in the division of Japan between the south and center dominated by a Japanese Empire and the north of Honshu and Hokkaido dominated by the Shogunate.
 
Very interesting possebilities and scenario's...

A Japan that's divided in a Japanese Empire and an independant Shogunate would certainly lead to some very interesting developments...
 
Very interesting possebilities and scenario's...

A Japan that's divided in a Japanese Empire and an independant Shogunate would certainly lead to some very interesting developments...

Looking at what Iñaki said about simmering rebellius forces in the North of Honshu one could imagine this area becoming something of a borderland, with raids from the North meeting insurrections and forcing increasingly authoritarian counter-measures

It could also lead to an interesting playing-out of European power politics in another theatre - IIRC Imperial Japan looked to the German army for inspiration. If you take this in addition to the Ezo Republic having a French military dominance, you get a sort of Franco-German clash by proxy.

Into which you can throw Russia and Britain as the other powers with the greatest influence in the area.

Grey Wolf
 
Looking at what Iñaki said about simmering rebellius forces in the North of Honshu one could imagine this area becoming something of a borderland, with raids from the North meeting insurrections and forcing increasingly authoritarian counter-measures

It could also lead to an interesting playing-out of European power politics in another theatre - IIRC Imperial Japan looked to the German army for inspiration. If you take this in addition to the Ezo Republic having a French military dominance, you get a sort of Franco-German clash by proxy.

Into which you can throw Russia and Britain as the other powers with the greatest influence in the area.

Grey Wolf
Don't forget the Americans, particularly after the USCW.
 
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