AH Challenge: Italian Colony/ies in the Americas

When did the Papacy lose power in Rome? Are you referring to the "Babylonian Captivity" or something else?

The presence of the Papacy presents a problem, as messing with Rome would provoke an invasion of Italy by one or more Catholic powers.
 
Very early Italian Unification and Colonization

An idea is to have the italo-normans Hauteville in south of italy not dieing out. Roger II should have an heir and not giving his daughter Costance in marriage to the Holy Emperor. It Crusader Kings it works quite well, with a solid south italian base, do not expand (until later) up north and anger the pope and empire at the same time. Instead turn westward capturing muslim possessions, aiding the reconquista or even taking up chunks of spain. Also some royal marriage and inheritance would help. Instead of having the aragones and (later) spanish domination in south of italy you have a south italian domination on the iberian peninsula ... couple centuries later you are all set up for sending your Conquistadori and Coloni to the Americas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_II_of_Sicily

Even more strong option would be for Frederick II (son of Costance which was actually quite italianized). The options here are many. He could not to lose to the northern league and put the pope to its place. I don't know if he could turn the king of germany and italy hereditary (resulting in a italianized HRE-wank). But even with keeping the king of sicily and parts of central/northern italy you get a regardable power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

Basically you have to unify a good chunk of italy, keep it notwithstanding the papacy or the emperor and get a foothold in spain or marocco.
 
Do not really think before 1900's this could be done.

In 1945 Argentinas population was 13.709.238. From 1900 to 1920 3 million Italians migrated to Argentina. After the end of WW II half a million migrated.

This would probably not be the best choice but have the Axis win in Europe. If Axis win then have the Italians in Argentina decide to join part of Argentina to Italy. Italy would then need to send troops to Argentina.
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
Looking at options , I know Texas was sparsely populated , And was in need of Settlers would it be possible for a slow Build up of Italians being settled there instead of Settlers moving in from The U.S Could someone like Santa Anna or someone earlier Decided on good Catholic Emigrants moving in for free land or similar. ? Does not need one Italian state , But some good selling on the Part of someone visiting a number of Italian Cities saying how great the land is.

And builds up till there is more Italian than other People in the area, not interested in the US taking over the area, perhaps treated well enough to be originally favor Santa Anna . Until they have the want and drive to be independent, but looking back to the home Country?city States possibly around the time of the 1848 revolutions.

Seen already comments about Hungry Pulling it's Troops out earlier from Italy possibly leading to at least a chance, of Northern Italian State Minus the Papal states South Supported by the Swiss ,

Immigrants in this Texas State supporting Relatives back home in some way giving a unifying cause to Getting a Italian State across the Atlantic,

Sure might have being walking a tight rope Balance with Mexican and US played off against each other ? for Support

This is far from my area of knowledge
 
I don't think any Post-1800 colonization of the Americas is very realistic without serious changing the timeline; with Britain and the US both hostile to any attempts at outright colonization the best the Italians could hope to obtain is a strong degree of influence over Latin American states.

Here's a random thought; via whatever means you prefer a significantly unified Italy exists, which is in personal union with Portugal at the time of discovery. A generation or two later the union ends, with the colonies being split between the two states.
 
In 1660, St. Croix (one of what is today the US Virgin Islands) was given by Phillippe de Longvilliers de Poincy governor of St Kitts, to the Knights of Malta.

PoD: Instead of selling it to the French West India Company in 1665, the Knights of Malta retain the island.

1798: Napoleon conquers Malta (as happened in OTL), the Knights however still control St. Croix

1834: The Knights establish their new headquarters in Rome (as happened in OTL) and are brought under close Roman Catholic Church scrutiny

Later, 1870 when Rome is brought into united Italy (as happend in OTL), St. Croix also becomes Italian rather than belonging to the Vatican
 
Here's a random thought; via whatever means you prefer a significantly unified Italy exists, which is in personal union with Portugal at the time of discovery. A generation or two later the union ends, with the colonies being split between the two states.

I was thinking of using a similar Italo-Portugese Alliance for my TL idea (look at previous page) so that Italy would have some friendly Atlantic ports (they get their own later) and Portugal will have access to lucrative Carribean trade.

In 1660, St. Croix (one of what is today the US Virgin Islands) was given by Phillippe de Longvilliers de Poincy governor of St Kitts, to the Knights of Malta.

You what? You can't be serious. *wikipedia's it* You're right. Good God, I never knew that for five years, puny old us was a colonial power. *proudness*.

Someone just revived a thread like this about early Italian unification, BTW.

Jim
 
In 1660, St. Croix (one of what is today the US Virgin Islands) was given by Phillippe de Longvilliers de Poincy governor of St Kitts, to the Knights of Malta.

PoD: Instead of selling it to the French West India Company in 1665, the Knights of Malta retain the island.

1798: Napoleon conquers Malta (as happened in OTL), the Knights however still control St. Croix

1834: The Knights establish their new headquarters in Rome (as happened in OTL) and are brought under close Roman Catholic Church scrutiny

Later, 1870 when Rome is brought into united Italy (as happend in OTL), St. Croix also becomes Italian rather than belonging to the Vatican

Brillant!!

However to ruin things up, the order of malta is not quite italian, is more like a diplomatic entity and italy grants them the same rights as an embassy.
Also, if they still hold the island why move there in 1835 and remain independent. They were quite used in governing island. New Malta!
 
Also, if they still hold the island why move there in 1835 and remain independent. They were quite used in governing island. New Malta!

*eyes shine* Long live the great colonial empire of MALTA!!!!

I don't think the knights would like to govern a small island THAT much away from the Med. There always dreamed of retaking Rhodes all the time that they were here. Also, I don't know but were the people of St.Croix at that time even catholics?

Jim
 
Another possibility: After Collumbus proved to be a horrible ruler in Hispaniola his family surrendered most given provileges in the New World in exchange of a fiefdom over the island of Jamaica (real credit was to his son Diego, who did a really good job cleaning the mess left by his father). If the later Collumbus bothered to attract settlers from their homeland in Genoa (and managed to not have their male line dying out), Jamaica might have become a de facto Italian "kingdom" in the Americas under only nominal Spanish rule, and in turn would have been too populated/defended to have fallen under British rule a century later.
 
Platensia - Genoese (later Piedmontese and Italian) control over the Plata estuary.

At first a cession of the border area between Brazil and Uruguay (Colonia) as a neutral buffer about 1660, later a slow inglobation of Uruguay first, and Argentina later, except the southern tip, Magellania, ending up as a frosty British colony. The Piedmontese help Rio Grande do Sul and S.ta Catarina to get free from Brazil, the two states are later annexed into the United States of Greater Paraguay giving them an Atlantic coast.
The Italians manage to maintain control vover the colony, in always weker forms, up to the rise of Fascism when a civil war breaks out and anti-fascist independentists gain the upper hand. They'll enter the war alongside Brazil in 1942 and will be among the Allied armies in Italy, freeing Rome as Clark mops up half a German army in Latium, as he should.
Nuclear power from 1957, never got thermo, nver enteerd NATO despite intense US pressure, remained neutral in the Cold War deploring both Soviet oppression and US-inspired state terror in the rest of Latin America (ushering in the horrible war of dissolution of Greater Paraguay, a south American Yugoslavia on steroids). In space with men from 1977 to 1984 with a short-lived national program, quashed as too expensive. Suffered heavy crisis from the eighties. Rebelled against IMF policy in the 2000s, suffering isolation, avoids the worst of the financial bubble by cutting links to most world finance and eciting the WTO. Very strong cultural ties to Italy, but when a B-like tycoon tries to get power in the late Nineties, the army stages the first coup since 1920 to oust him and quietly seize and nationalize all his assets. All in all a Christian social democrat, isolationist middle power with prosperous agriculture, reasonable industry and good public and private services.
 
Perhaps Venice, in the 1600s, after Portugal recovered its independence from Spain, could attempt to grab part of Brazil from the Portuguese, as the Dutch actually did in this same time frame, in order to latch onto the lucrative sugar trade.

This aim would provide a valuable economic motive for a Venetian colonial effort in the New World which could conceivably last until a united Italy could take over.

Or you could have Napoleon survive, and his Kingdom of Italy as a sort of sub-kingdom for the heir could have an autonomous foreign policy

Excellent theory. After conquering Portugal in 1807 and causing the flight of the Portuguese royal family to Brazil, Napoleon could have handed over part or all of Brazil to his viceroy (and stepson) Jerome's Kingdom of Italy. A final French victory in Europe could have made such an action a reality which would be well before the Monroe Doctrine although that would hardly be a consideration for Napoleon.
 
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