AH Challenge: Israel in EU

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have Israel be considered enough a part of the European community to join some sort of federal-y European coalition, like the EU (butterflies may change the name or whatever). POD is May 15, 1948. I mean, they're part of Eurovision, and that's more important, right?

Please remember that modern European attitudes towards Israel are not historical European attitudes towards Israel.

My immediate thoughts are to have Israel never drift out of the English and/or French sphere of influence like it did in the late 60s, and have greater emphasis internally of European values.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Maybe if the Cold War is both colder and longer, with states like Syria and Egypt being full-blown Soviet puppets, then European attitudes towards Israel could be shifted enough to let this happen.
 
Keep Labour in power, keep Israel primarily a socialist liberal democracy, find a way for the Arabs and Palestinians to "trade peace for land" in the aftermath of the 1967 war when the Israelis were willing to make meaningful concessions in this regard, and you have a primarily European-peopled liberal democracy just ready for membership! Combine that with angsty German guilt and voila!

Negative European attitutes toward Israel really didn't become dominant until Israel began to harden its attitudes about the occupied territories and the orthodox religious right began to assume power and influence.
 

ninebucks

Banned
I don't think it'd be sustainable. Israel isn't going to stop getting attacked just because its in the EEC, (indeed, the Arabs will probably bring out a lot more of the 'crusader state' rhetoric). Eventually, the other European nations, will either get fed up of assisting its troublesome partner, or else the entire European project will collapse.
 
I don't think it'd be sustainable. Israel isn't going to stop getting attacked just because its in the EEC, (indeed, the Arabs will probably bring out a lot more of the 'crusader state' rhetoric). Eventually, the other European nations, will either get fed up of assisting its troublesome partner, or else the entire European project will collapse.

Why? this scenario that zoomar wrote they are at relative peace, in this scenario I can imagine Turkey entering the EU and maybe another west - aligned muslim country, like Morocco or Egypt ...
 
Why? this scenario that zoomar wrote they are at relative peace, in this scenario I can imagine Turkey entering the EU and maybe another west - aligned muslim country, like Morocco or Egypt ...

Turkey would help break the resistance to a non-europe country. Geographically speaking.
 
Why? this scenario that zoomar wrote they are at relative peace, in this scenario I can imagine Turkey entering the EU and maybe another west - aligned muslim country, like Morocco or Egypt ...

In such a scenario you would almost certainly get Israel and Palestine joining the EU at the same time. Indeed, even in OTL this has occasionally been suggested as a carrot on offer to encourage a genuine peace deal.
 
In such a scenario you would almost certainly get Israel and Palestine joining the EU at the same time. Indeed, even in OTL this has occasionally been suggested as a carrot on offer to encourage a genuine peace deal.

I doubt this, actually. European sympathy for the Palestinians is fairly recent - the 70s or so - and all the reasons that Israel might join the EU, such as their European ancestry, European ideals, modern economy etc, don't apply to a Palestinian republic. Also remember that if the POD is before 1967, Palestine is held by Egypt and Jordan, not Israel.
 

Thande

Donor
I'm thinking maybe you could do something with the Munich Olympics attack, like make it bloodier and have a lot of civilian European casualties involved, that might stoke sympathy for Israel ('this is what they live with every day', etc.)
 
Morocco would be able to join if Israel gets in, unless they use the "culturally European" thing that helped Cyprus get in.

And in this scenario, I'd expect a greater anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe, whether it be from anger at Palestinian attacks on their Israeli comrades or Muslims in occupied territory emigrating on a larger scale and generally causing more anger.
 
Morocco would be able to join if Israel gets in, unless they use the "culturally European" thing that helped Cyprus get in.

Unless the EC develops differently Morocco would'nt not be able to join, atleast not until starting in th 2000's.

Israel is culturally European, on the periphery of geographic Europe and has at various times either been part of/under control of a European
country or considered part of Europe.

Morocco was only controlled by a European power fro the second half of the 19th century on wards, is on another continent and is not
culturally European.
 
Unless the EC develops differently Morocco would'nt not be able to join, atleast not until starting in th 2000's.

Israel is culturally European, on the periphery of geographic Europe and has at various times either been part of/under control of a European
country or considered part of Europe.

Morocco was only controlled by a European power fro the second half of the 19th century on wards, is on another continent and is not
culturally European.

We could debate Morocco being European, but before the big religion gap, Morocco was considered an extension of Rome, and as we all know, Rome is Europe and everything outside of Rome is full of Persians, Africans, and Pagan Germanics :rolleyes:

Maybe it's because I'm not in Europe, but I'm more open to the idea of a greater Med. culture that involves Morocco. I imagine if there wasn't a religious divide(AKA Morocco was Christian, or no Islam, etc.) then Moroccan membership would have been a real issue. Anyway, yeah, Morocco is a non-option. If anything, Tunisia stands the best chance to join the EU. If I had to describe EU expansion into debetably non-Euro territory, it'd go Turkey->Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan->Lebanon->Israel->Tunisia->Morocco/Syria/Palestine/Algeria. I think that apart from the states not mentioned here, Egypt and Lybia are the only possible candidates. MAAYBEEE Mauritania, but that's only if the EU adopted the mindset of being the return of the Roman Empire :p
 
The most obvious POD would be to avoid the '67 war. The pre-existing stalemate eventually gets codified by the 1980s, with Gaza becoming an autonomous territory of Egypt, Jordanian control of the West Bank being confirmed, the Old City of Jerusalem internationalized, and relations between Israel and all the Arab states normalized.

Without the ongoing conflict with the Arabs, Israeli society avoids some of the radicalism and illiberalism that afflict it today. With a demographically secure Jewish majority, and without the messianic Hasidic element, discussion about Israel becoming a "state for all its citizens" - a state that's culturally Jewish by way of its majority pop., not state identity - is mainstream, and by the late 1990s, a written constitution secularizes the state and abolishes Jewish preferences while retaining the flag and the Hebrew language as the national tongue.

All this would make Israeli entry to the EU possible by the late '90s, and probable by 2002 or so.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I'm thinking maybe you could do something with the Munich Olympics attack, like make it bloodier and have a lot of civilian European casualties involved, that might stoke sympathy for Israel ('this is what they live with every day', etc.)

Except they didn't at the time,yes there was a big terror attack once in a while, but there wasn't the the small bleeding cuts tactics which the Palestinians adopted later.

Beside that sympathy Europeans get for Israel, there's no way any Europeans want to mess their countries into that conflict.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Morocco would be able to join if Israel gets in, unless they use the "culturally European" thing that helped Cyprus get in.

The fact that Morocco was kept out because they wasn't European are a polite fiction. The real truth are that Morocco have no chance at all to join EU, for economical, democratic and social reasons to say nothing about their occupation of West Sahara. But it was more polite to say it was because they wasn't Europeans

And in this scenario, I'd expect a greater anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe, whether it be from anger at Palestinian attacks on their Israeli comrades or Muslims in occupied territory emigrating on a larger scale and generally causing more anger.

Israel aren't going to be member unless they deal with the problem, so you won't see more hostility to Muslims.
 
We could debate Morocco being European, but before the big religion gap, Morocco was considered an extension of Rome, and as we all know, Rome is Europe and everything outside of Rome is full of Persians, Africans, and Pagan Germanics :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure no one considers the Roman Empire to be the geographic definition fo Europe, yes, half of its territory was in Europe, but it was a transcontinental Empire, much like the Ottoman Empire was.


Maybe it's because I'm not in Europe, but I'm more open to the idea of a greater Med.

I'm not European nor do I live their, however the EU and its predecessors were created for European integration, not Mediteranian integration.


culture that involves Morocco. I imagine if there wasn't a religious divide(AKA Morocco was Christian, or no Islam, etc.) then Moroccan membership would have been a real issue.

While religion did play some role, overall even if Morocco was Christian it still would'nt have been invited as it's in Africa and had alot fo democritzation, Human Rights ane conomic issues that wouold have prevented it.


Anyway, yeah, Morocco is a non-option. If anything, Tunisia stands the best chance to join the EU.

I'm not saying it will never be a member, rather that without a drastically different EC, their's no chance before 2000.

As it stands Morocco may well end up in the EU a few decades from now, I mean it's being integrated now, is set to join the common market and has been passing legislation bringin its laws in line with EU standards.


If I had to describe EU expansion into debetably non-Euro territory, it'd go Turkey->Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan->Lebanon->Israel->Tunisia->Morocco/Syria/Palestine/Algeria.

Personally I consider Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey geographically European myself.

Lebanon is interesting, if ITTL Israel gets EU membership, and Lebanon eventually breaks free from Syrian influence as per OTL and starts bringin itself to EU standards it would probably be able to join as well as it's a multi-religious country, cultrually European and would be in the same boat as Israel in terms of geography.
 
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