AH Challenge - Is this map possible?

I think that a Paris Commune having Paris, Lyon, Lorraine, Alsace, French Flanders and Belgium would Steamroll the rest of France. You basically have all the french industry and steel producing regions in one nation, with nothing for the kingdom of France or the kingdom of Occitania except the coal and iron production of the center of France.

It is likely Paris would outstrip the other two no problem, France and Occitania might very well end up very poor nations ITTL

Right - new map has Ireland as part of UK as well as some parts of Africa and Pacific islands as Empire.

I am looking at a POD were Britain is a mercantile country (very similar to Greece now), it has a huge merchant navy (along with a supporting Royal Navy) but very little in way of Empire.

The English explore, but do not conquor (basically the idealised European power - bringing the possitives of international trade with out the colonial overlord.)

Their history would have been seperate to that of France, so I guess that this would mean an initial POD of no Battle of Hastings (or at least the Bastard looses), this could also link to having Iceland rather than Denmark controling it.

Im liking the Battle of Hastings idea (although its a much earlier POD than I was looking at but still its something to consider). I dont think that could be the exact POD to make this map possible but butterflying the battle away (or butterflying the outcome) is definitely in the cards


Two problems I have with the map. One is the Netherlands does not have the Maluku Islands or the spice islands. These were one of the two core territories of the Dutch in Indonesia (the other being Batavia/Jakarta) and probably the most profitable of all of them. Giving the Portuguese (and later Brazil) the small Sunda islands (like Flores, Timor, Bali, Lombok) seams reasonable, giving them the spice island is a very big difference. It would cost the Dutch a lot of money. which leads me to the second point.

The Dutch are completely overstretched. I do not think small Netherlands can control such a big part of India, Birma, south east Africa and Australia next to Sumatra and Java. If you want to give the Netherlands all of this, you realy need to expend it, for example giving it Flanders or parts of Germany. Or else remove south east India and a large part of Australia from Dutch control (just give the Dutch west autralia for example).

Besides that. I don't think that the smallish France can colonise such a big part of Africa, without a mediterranian coastline or Paris (the core of France). Also I find it unlikely that Britain can get such a big part of Polynesia or New Guinea or New Zealand without a big base, like India. In your scenario Britain is just a small colonizing country. Just give them the part of Africa and only a couple of polynesian islands.

My advise: Unify France (why did you break it up anyway?) and give France the Dutch part of India (maybe let the Dutch keep a small part near Sri Lanka), Eastern Australia (give the west to the Netherlands) and New Zealand. Give France, Germany, Brasil and maybe the Netherlands some of British Polynesia.


You make some good points regarding the islands, I returned the ones you mentioned to the dutch, as for the Dutch homeland id like to not break off parts of Germany or France if I can help it, that means cutting down the dutch empire (or possibility giving it more of India so they can use it as a base of operations like Britian did OTL)


In terms of French Africa my idea was that France was once a great power but for some reason struck up a civil war, leaving three separate french states and a rump monarchist government to watch over the former french holdings in Africa (with the rest of the former french colonial empire picked off by the Dutch, British, and Portuguese). Im sure thats ASB but I'm trying to avoid the typically used colonial giants (Although a mainly mercantile Britian is a nice way around that, perhaps a similar deal could be cut for France?)


Ive gone ahead and Split up British Polynesia,


Liking the modifications. I know that Venice held those territories briefly, but with a strong Ottoman Empire Cyprus would have been nigh impossible to hold. Morea is difficult too, but I think you trimmed it to a point of being managable. I also like Germany a bit better now that you elaborated a bit, though I'd say that would be a nation with allot of regional autonomy, and would only work with a butterflied Prussian dominance in northern Germany and nobody strong enough to fill the void. That is certainly possible mind you, just stating some things needed for it to happen. France being divided would have to be along lines where each group has something that the others lack in order to prevent being steamrolled, and at least with those borders the Paris commune would be far and away the most powerful. Do you have a specific time frame for the PoD in mind, at least the century to help us get a feel for the nations we're working with?

If I may meke a suggestion for helping cut down the Brazillian space filling empire, why not make Aragon have a colonial empire. If it seems too difficult without an Atlantic port, give them Navarre, since there were plenty of opportunities for them to hold it IOTL. They were considerably more powerful and populous then Portugal, even moreso with their Italian and Sicilian lands, and would likely have similar colonial ambitions to Castille and Portugal as well.

Also, why not make Greenland independant? Sure they don't have much strength, but nobody wants their land either. Have them as an independant protectorate of the Russian Empire, Britan, or Denmark and that would make considerably more sence.

Just so you know, I do love a good many ideas. Independant Aragon, Japanese Colonial Empire, and French flavored America.


Prussia would definitely have to be cut down to size perhaps Austria retains Silesia or Prussia ITTL is just Brandenburg territory, either way it shouldn’t be too hard to curb Prussian dominance (chances are Germany will be Austrian dominated with the crown being that of a Hapsburg and all). As for Germany itself the autonomy of member states would be huge, more of a country of countries with a emperor binding them.


Sorry I cant offer you a more definite area of POD (but I was originally thinking a 16th century POD).


Im really liking the idea of a Argonese colonial empire, ive gone ahead and given them Navarre, id like to hear your thoughts on where they’d colonize.


A good point in Greenland ive made them a Russian protectorate


Well if you have a reforming Qing dynasty, why not go with their 1689 borders in Manchuria and their 1820 borders elsewhere? As for Vietnam, it probably should be independent. (At least in the north, you could maybe go creative and have Rattanakosin control the south)

I must say my expertise in Asia is limited ive gone ahead and made some adjustments, let me know what you think and ill try to adjust things accordingly


I do see where the brazil thing comes from, the portugese royals going into exile in brazil and never returning. where brazil becomes the defacto follow up of portugal.

I have to agree with pompejus, there is no way the netherlands could get all of this without the moluccas and the other east-indian things that are brazilian here. i think new-gunea would be dutch too.
Instead of making australia new-holland, maybe they have new zealand and some australian things on the aussie east coast. Although the netherlands looks heavily overstretched we don't know what the composition of the republic is, maybe the colonies and the motherland are united as one country.
so the dutch republic might not be purely european, but global (i could see that being true for at least NL+south-africa+ australia/nz, and maybe later the rest.

an option to get the netherlands this colonial big would be a dutch-burgundy that keeps existing, it would pretty much be the dutch republic + purple paris region.

in south-america, if dutch guinea still exists as a whole, the netherlands probably also has several islands in the caribean

edit: i doubt that in a world that creates a map like this the yugoslav kingdom would exist, i expect at least a seperate serbia


Southeast Asia sure is a headache it seems, but I think your idea of the dutch in new zealand rather than australlian is a much more feasible plan.


That Dutch global government idea is pretty promising could you elaborate? Are you thinking de facto independent dutch “colonies” or perhaps British dominion style of government


Its hard to see but in South America the dutch do have some islands


Shame I liked Yugoslavia, perhaps just a greater K. of Serbia then?


What font did you use for the map?


Brush Script MT
 
I updated the map very slightly, but I think there is potential to make some big edits come next update to make things more plausible, here is a list of stuff im hearing/might make good ideas.

- The Russian empire is very ASB atm, that might be solved by having the monarchy exiled early and claim some land or the french being pro Russian monarchist and allowing them to have some of the less valuable north area, just some ideas

- South America is a little too close border wise to OTL, what are your thoughts on a different Spanish decolonization/ remaining Spanish presence in America?

- France, I prefer it apart but if the prevailing opinion is unification Ill do that

-Dutch Republic, how might it support such a large empire without a particularly large homeland, more Indian territory maybe?

- Ill change the font next go around im hearing its difficult to read
- Australia and Vietnam could still use some deciding

- Also lets not count out Spain and Aragon, they could do a good job of cutting up alot of the space filling Dutch/Brazillian Empires

- any other idea (especially regarding the POD) would be much appreciated, let me know what you think
 
Once again liking the further changes. I'd say you can take a colonial Aragon almost anywhere in Africa and the Americas, though I would suspect that their time as a great naval power would be over by the time that the Indian Ocean and the South Pacific were realistic options for colonizing. If I had to choose, I'd say give Aragon Peru and a chunk of Brazilian Africa.

France can remain split, but I'd say only in two, and along lines that divide the population and agricultural and industrial resources evenly enough that the two countries are competetive. I'd pick the Kingdom and the commune to keep, and give the lands of the republic to the kingdom, which will give them the majority of the population and farmland, while the commune gets the best industrial sites and the historical capital.

Also, for the Dutch, you could consider giving them a special relationship with the Germans, where the Germans provide manpower and protection in exchange for a portion of the profits of the colonies, reduced trade taxation, and lower taxes for Germanic settlers in the Dutch colonies, which will also solve the problem of who is going to populate those colonies.

As for a PoD, how about have two, the first by having Isabella the Catholic marry someone other than Ferdinand of Aragon (possibly have her marry into Portugal to help create a president for Castile and Portugal being united). The second is have Mary of Burgundy marry into the ruling French Valois House, thus giving France all of the Duchy of Burgundy (the Dutch can break away later). After that, Ferdinand finds a way to claim Navarre, Uber France does a better job keeping England in check than OTL, on again off again united Castile and Portugal are even more prolific colonizers than OTL, along with Aragon as their primary competetion. Without Spain, the Hapsbutgs focus on eastern Europem. As a result, Poland-Lithuania doesn't last long, and Lithuania is later inherited or conquered by early Russia, increasing its projection capabilities. France and Russia are late to the colonial game, but north America is relatively open thanks to Castilian focus on Mexico, Portugese focus on Brazil, and Aragonese focus on Peru.
 
For Poland you must have John of Luxembourg win against Wladyslaw the Elbowhigh but allow Wladyslaw the elbowhigh retain Krakow and conquer Galicia but most of Poland goes to John of Luxembourg.
 
Once again liking the further changes. I'd say you can take a colonial Aragon almost anywhere in Africa and the Americas, though I would suspect that their time as a great naval power would be over by the time that the Indian Ocean and the South Pacific were realistic options for colonizing. If I had to choose, I'd say give Aragon Peru and a chunk of Brazilian Africa.

France can remain split, but I'd say only in two, and along lines that divide the population and agricultural and industrial resources evenly enough that the two countries are competetive. I'd pick the Kingdom and the commune to keep, and give the lands of the republic to the kingdom, which will give them the majority of the population and farmland, while the commune gets the best industrial sites and the historical capital.

Also, for the Dutch, you could consider giving them a special relationship with the Germans, where the Germans provide manpower and protection in exchange for a portion of the profits of the colonies, reduced trade taxation, and lower taxes for Germanic settlers in the Dutch colonies, which will also solve the problem of who is going to populate those colonies.

As for a PoD, how about have two, the first by having Isabella the Catholic marry someone other than Ferdinand of Aragon (possibly have her marry into Portugal to help create a president for Castile and Portugal being united). The second is have Mary of Burgundy marry into the ruling French Valois House, thus giving France all of the Duchy of Burgundy (the Dutch can break away later). After that, Ferdinand finds a way to claim Navarre, Uber France does a better job keeping England in check than OTL, on again off again united Castile and Portugal are even more prolific colonizers than OTL, along with Aragon as their primary competetion. Without Spain, the Hapsbutgs focus on eastern Europem. As a result, Poland-Lithuania doesn't last long, and Lithuania is later inherited or conquered by early Russia, increasing its projection capabilities. France and Russia are late to the colonial game, but north America is relatively open thanks to Castilian focus on Mexico, Portugese focus on Brazil, and Aragonese focus on Peru.

I like where you are going with Aragon


I rather liked the three french countries and id like to keep it but your right two of them make more sense, so ive updated the map for two French states unless a plausible way to have three french states could be found.


Ive got to say the Dutch-German relationship is a great idea, id like to develop the particulars of the whole arraignment further. A special relationship really does tackle the issues both nations have, the Dutch and their lack of industry, and the Germans and their lack of ability to do much of anything externally due to fact that they are really a nation composed of dozens of self governing entities. I could see a Zollverein style economic arraignment including the dutch as observer (or something along those lines)


Id like to keep the POD down to one if possible. As for the time and nature of your POD's they are spot on what I was going for. Engineering a single event that causes things to move along the same lines you mentioned would be ideal, let me know of any other ideas you have and ill do some research in a bit.


Anyhow that’s maps updated so let me know what you think (anyone else reading this post, let me know of your ideas as well)
 
For Poland you must have John of Luxembourg win against Wladyslaw the Elbowhigh but allow Wladyslaw the elbowhigh retain Krakow and conquer Galicia but most of Poland goes to John of Luxembourg.

This is true, but in the interest of having a later pod this "poland" is simply a break away state following the collapse of the Austrian empire. This map http://home.zonnet.nl/gerardvonhebel/euro1803.GIF shows what I mean, "poland" is that state in pink in the upper right of Austria labeled "ad of austria" or at least thats the idea
 
Loving the Aragonese colonial empire. Something about Aragon taking down the Incas for their treasure just seems right.

I don't have a specific single PoD in mind yet, but if I were you I'd look into the Portugese royals of this time, since the two main goals here are to prevent Castile and Aragon from merging and to stop Burgundy from getting Habsburged so it can merge with France. The Portugese were intermarrying with the Habsburgs at this time, and an earlier, later or butterflied marriage could mean that there are no marriagable Habsburgs available when Charles the Bold dies. The same PoD could also lead to King Henry IV of Castile (who also married a Portugese princess) getting a wife who doesn't openly cheat on him, allowing her children to be (or at least be believed to be) legitimate, thus preventing an opportunity to merge with Aragon and presenting one to merge with Portugal.

You could also break up Ferdinand and Isabella, have her marry a Portugese prince, and have Ferdinand for whatever reason (probably the Burgundian nobles wanting a ruler who cant actually enforce his position) manage to secure a marriage to Mary of Burgundy, but not establish a lasting personal union (the couple has two sons, the Elder gets Aragon and the younger gets Burgundy). That could be even more fun, since you could have Ferdinand divide his realm between three children, into Aragon, Burgundy, and the Netherlands, thus giving an early Spanish flavored beginning to the Dutch empire.

Also, just for the fun of it, you could have Florida be a failed attempt by one or more of the Italian states to establish a presence in the new world.
 
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Loving the Aragonese colonial empire. Something about Aragon taking down the Incas for their treasure just seems right.

I don't have a specific single PoD in mind yet, but if I were you I'd look into the Portugese royals of this time, since the two main goals here are to prevent Castile and Aragon from merging and to stop Burgundy from getting Habsburged so it can merge with France. The Portugese were intermarrying with the Habsburgs at this time, and an earlier, later or butterflied marriage could mean that there are no marriagable Habsburgs available when Charles the Bold dies. The same PoD could also lead to King Henry IV of Castile (who also married a Portugese princess) getting a wife who doesn't openly cheat on him, allowing her children to be (or at least be believed to be) legitimate, thus preventing an opportunity to merge with Aragon and presenting one to merge with Portugal.

You could also break up Ferdinand and Isabella, have her marry a Portugese prince, and have Ferdinand for whatever reason (probably the Burgundian nobles wanting a ruler who cant actually enforce his position) manage to secure a marriage to Mary of Burgundy, but not establish a lasting personal union (the couple has two sons, the Elder gets Aragon and the younger gets Burgundy). That could be even more fun, since you could have Ferdinand divide his realm between three children, into Aragon, Burgundy, and the Netherlands, thus giving an early Spanish flavored beginning to the Dutch empire.

Also, just for the fun of it, you could have Florida be a failed attempt by one or more of the Italian states to establish a presence in the new world.

If Ferdinand marries Mary that means the House of Ivrea had already returned to Burgundy.
 
Loving the Aragonese colonial empire. Something about Aragon taking down the Incas for their treasure just seems right.

I don't have a specific single PoD in mind yet, but if I were you I'd look into the Portugese royals of this time, since the two main goals here are to prevent Castile and Aragon from merging and to stop Burgundy from getting Habsburged so it can merge with France. The Portugese were intermarrying with the Habsburgs at this time, and an earlier, later or butterflied marriage could mean that there are no marriagable Habsburgs available when Charles the Bold dies. The same PoD could also lead to King Henry IV of Castile (who also married a Portugese princess) getting a wife who doesn't openly cheat on him, allowing her children to be (or at least be believed to be) legitimate, thus preventing an opportunity to merge with Aragon and presenting one to merge with Portugal.

You could also break up Ferdinand and Isabella, have her marry a Portugese prince, and have Ferdinand for whatever reason (probably the Burgundian nobles wanting a ruler who cant actually enforce his position) manage to secure a marriage to Mary of Burgundy, but not establish a lasting personal union (the couple has two sons, the Elder gets Aragon and the younger gets Burgundy). That could be even more fun, since you could have Ferdinand divide his realm between three children, into Aragon, Burgundy, and the Netherlands, thus giving an early Spanish flavored beginning to the Dutch empire.

Also, just for the fun of it, you could have Florida be a failed attempt by one or more of the Italian states to establish a presence in the new world.

aye this is the particular stuff that will make a good POD, however Spain doesnt necessarily have to legitimize the union of Spain and Portugal, it might simply be that they steamroll the nation and never give it back, florida i was going for the spainish but i like your idea
 
If you are still thinking about what to do with Australia, maybe it is an idea to give (just) Western Australia to the Dutch. I admit, it is a bit of an Alternate History cliche, but there is a good reason for. The Dutch trade routes from south Africa to Jaca came very close to SW Australia (more or less the only inhabitable place of western Australia), I know it sounds strange to take such a detour and not a route in a more direct line, but it is a matter of the seacurrents, it was quicker that way (just google VOC traderoutes and you'll see). With a little imagination you can see a Dutch colony there, not unlike South Africa. It makes a lot more sense than Dutch New Zealand.

Having said that. i believe you are looking for a very early POD (like around Hastings and such). Sadly I have to inform you that such an early POD would most likely butterfly away the Netherlands. The Netherlands came into being because of a couple of rather unlikely events during the late middle ages. With a POD around 1000 it is a lot more likely that you won't get a Netherlands than you will and if you get a Netherlands it would be rather different than OTL Netherlands.
 
If you are still thinking about what to do with Australia, maybe it is an idea to give (just) Western Australia to the Dutch. I admit, it is a bit of an Alternate History cliche, but there is a good reason for. The Dutch trade routes from south Africa to Jaca came very close to SW Australia (more or less the only inhabitable place of western Australia), I know it sounds strange to take such a detour and not a route in a more direct line, but it is a matter of the seacurrents, it was quicker that way (just google VOC traderoutes and you'll see). With a little imagination you can see a Dutch colony there, not unlike South Africa. It makes a lot more sense than Dutch New Zealand.

Having said that. i believe you are looking for a very early POD (like around Hastings and such). Sadly I have to inform you that such an early POD would most likely butterfly away the Netherlands. The Netherlands came into being because of a couple of rather unlikely events during the late middle ages. With a POD around 1000 it is a lot more likely that you won't get a Netherlands than you will and if you get a Netherlands it would be rather different than OTL Netherlands.

Ive heard alot of talk about of dutch west australia, and its the most plausable thing to do. However its really cliche id like to avoid it if i can, perhaps theres a way around it? (if its just too ASB ill just give them the west since it does makes 100% more sense than new zealand) In terms of the POD the ideal time is the 16th century, early enough for chagnesto the new world but late enough as to not effect the The Seventeen Provinces too much, it might be a bit idealistic but I think at the least this map could be arranged with a 14th century POD at the latest, but if theres a reason the POD cant be that late with the countries as is let me know and ill probably swap up the map accordingly
 
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Map updated, South East Asia is still a little out there though. Maybe Spain & Japan could be given more of a presence in the region, thoughts?
 
Looking good. Glad to see the German/Dutch collaboration used to help with the Australia dilemma.

As a last postentiall idea, maybe give some Dutch or Brazillian land in the South Pacific to the Mexican Empire. I could picture them being a step below Brazil in power, as more of a regional than global power, but still wanting to compete with Brazil and prove that they are the most powerful new world nation. In that context, I would think that the first thing they would want to prove that they are a global threat is colonies, and the Pacific is their back yard, so that is where I think they would go first.

I would also say that having Japan go further afield with it's colonizing efforts would be interesting. Pan Pacific Empire is pretty much written on Japan's geography, but going further out once that objective is completed could be quite interesting. Maybe make one of the smaller south american colonies a Japanese protectorate, since I could easily see Japan considering Brazil as it's greatest rival what with Brazil's South Pacific holdings, and taking land in Brazil's back yard would definitely count as a bit of revenge.
 
Looking good. Glad to see the German/Dutch collaboration used to help with the Australia dilemma.

As a last postentiall idea, maybe give some Dutch or Brazillian land in the South Pacific to the Mexican Empire. I could picture them being a step below Brazil in power, as more of a regional than global power, but still wanting to compete with Brazil and prove that they are the most powerful new world nation. In that context, I would think that the first thing they would want to prove that they are a global threat is colonies, and the Pacific is their back yard, so that is where I think they would go first.

I would also say that having Japan go further afield with it's colonizing efforts would be interesting. Pan Pacific Empire is pretty much written on Japan's geography, but going further out once that objective is completed could be quite interesting. Maybe make one of the smaller south american colonies a Japanese protectorate, since I could easily see Japan considering Brazil as it's greatest rival what with Brazil's South Pacific holdings, and taking land in Brazil's back yard would definitely count as a bit of revenge.

It would be hard to give Mexico islands in the south pacific, not because of plausibility but because japan needs those islands to springboard its Asian empire, it also serves to give Spain its deathblow (basically Japan fills the role of the Spanish-American war OTL, that’s why they have the Spanish East Indies). However I really like the Brazil-Mexico rivalry idea, perhaps that tension could exist in Florida? Its a strategic location and the place of former Spanish colonies (Cuba etc). As for Japanese-Brazillian rivalry I could see that as well it might be difficult to have a protectorate (since I dont think a Spanish speaking country would want to be ruled by an Asian nation) but hey so long as the Japanese are beating down the Spanish, they might as well take some Latin American colonies, what you have in mind, and what of the Brazilian east indies should the Japanese have more of those? Maybe if we could come up with a solid POD we could work out all these loose ends? I really like your idea regarding Isabella and there are a great number of possibilities there, if we could find a single POD it would be great, In 1465 an attempt was made to marry Isabella to Alfonso V of Portugal etc (that might even butterfly the opening of the new world in 1492)
 
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