AH Challenge: India Colonizes Britain

Thande

Donor
...and just one more question out of curiosity: were you thinking of the Netherlands as a colony of the Hindu-Buddhist Majapahit empire, or were you thinking of the Netherlands being a colony of a smaller Javan muslim state? (the Majapahit empire would seem more logical to me...)
Well, I'm not an expert on Indonesia, but I was assuming it would be a Muslim Javanese empire.

Of course Flocc has also predicated his Anglistan idea being the colony of a Muslim Mughal India, which wouldn't have been my choice if I'd have had the idea first (I would have thought that a Hindu India, perhaps a long-lasting Gupta empire, would be a more appropriate colonial power).
 
Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to create a scenario where an Indian state successfully dominates the British Isles, with a POD no earlier than 600 AD.
The thread creator gave us the biggest hint of all in choosing the POD limit. What happened in the 600s? The last pan-Indian empire, Harsha's, collapsed, and Islam (which took India by the sword) was founded. Yes, it would be easier with a POD of 456 AD (with Skandagupta smashing the Huns once and for all), but if you:

1. Maintain the Harsha empire, and allow it to grow into an oligarchy
2. weaken Islam (even destroy it)

Then:
1. The caste system has reason to encourage innovation and dynamism
2. India can maintain friendly trade with Persia and Arabia without the threat of mass invasion

And, therefore, India has as good a chance as any part of Eurasia of having a Reniassance. If India is strong enough to scare off the Mongols come 1100-1200, then everything else falls into place. The Mongols wipe out the competition, and India should have an ample amount of time to produce the sort of competitive environment that leads to Imperialism before Europe awakes from her slumber.
 
Well, I'm not an expert on Indonesia, but I was assuming it would be a Muslim Javanese empire.

Well, like I said, the Hindu-Buddhist Majapahit Empire would be a better bet, because that empire pretty much succeeded in unifying Java and dominating most of what is now western and central Indonesia, pretty much all of Malaysia and even parts of the Phillipines, while even the most successful of the mainly Islamic successor states of the Majapahit Empire hardly even managed to unite Java.

Even the Sultanate of Mataram under Sultan Agung Hanyokrokusumo failed to conquer all of Java, even though the Sultanate of Mataram was, at this point, certainly the largest empire in the area of modern Indonesia after the fall of the Majapahit Empire.

The heyday of the Sultanate of Mataram lasted from 1613 to about 1670, when major revolts broke out againest Agung's successor Amangkurat I, which severely destabilized the Sultanate, after which Dutch intervention became ever more common, which further weakened the Sultanate and eventually brought it under Dutch rule.

As a more or less independant state, the Sultanate itself lasted from the 1570s to about the 1740s, which is unusually long compared to the other Islamic successor states of the Majapahit Empire; most of them didn't last much longer than 50 years (the Sultanate of Demak, which was one of the most powerful successor states, lasted only about 55 years, after which it was absorbed by the new kingdom of Pajang, which lasted only 20 years before being absorbed by the emerging Sultanate of Mataram), or remained only small local kingdoms and principalities.
 

Thande

Donor
Well, like I said, the Hindu-Buddhist Majapahit Empire would be a better bet, because that empire pretty much succeeded in unifying Java and dominating most of what is now western and central Indonesia, pretty much all of Malaysia and even parts of the Phillipines, while even the most successful of the mainly Islamic successor states of the Majapahit Empire hardly even managed to unite Java.

Even the Sultanate of Mataram under Sultan Agung Hanyokrokusumo failed to conquer all of Java, even though the Sultanate of Mataram was, at this point, certainly the largest empire in the area of modern Indonesia after the fall of the Majapahit Empire.

The heyday of the Sultanate of Mataram lasted from 1613 to about 1670, when major revolts broke out againest Agung's successor Amangkurat I, which severely destabilized the Sultanate, after which Dutch intervention became ever more common, which further weakened the Sultanate and eventually brought it under Dutch rule.

As a more or less independant state, the Sultanate itself lasted from the 1570s to about the 1740s, which is unusually long compared to the other Islamic successor states of the Majapahit Empire; most of them didn't last much longer than 50 years (the Sultanate of Demak, which was one of the most powerful successor states, lasted only about 55 years, after which it was absorbed by the new kingdom of Pajang, which lasted only 20 years before being absorbed by the emerging Sultanate of Mataram), or remained only small local kingdoms and principalities.
I've just read a little about the Majapahit Empire on Wikipedia. It's a strange sensation to read about the Dutch colonisation of Indonesia, as it seems like a parallel-universe version of the British in India :D

Looks like you'd have to do something about the Sultanate of Malacca to stop the Majapahit's decline. Of course, as this is Flocc's idea, the obvious thing would be for an Indian empire to bring Malaya under direct control and discourage expansion :D
 
I just realized it:

during the Edwardian era (or Victorian), one of the princes in line for the British throne marries a princess from one of the Princely States....the offspring is regarded by future Indian Nationalists writing textbooks as an Indian ruling over England.

(I suspect the Boers would go ape-sheet over this) :D :cool:

Once again the problem is that no one would accept the child's legitimacy.
 

Keenir

Banned
Once again the problem is that no one would accept the child's legitimacy.

Wasn't the big complaint (at the time) about Victoria I was that she was too German?
This kid* would have more royal English blood that Victoria did, and would've been declared the heir by none other than the sitting King. (the strategy worked for Elizabeth I too)

* = What would be a good name to follow? ie, George (_), Prince of Wales, son of George III.
 
Someone beat me to the punch, the Chola are probably the best choice. Have them defeat the Hoysalas, unite the Pandyans (by marriage?), complete the conquest of modern Malaysia/Indonesia, and start an oceanic trading/colonizing empire. By 1200 they're colonizing southernmost Africa, Socotra, Madagascar, Australia, Taiwan, and numerous other small islands and have united mainland India south of the Godavara River along with Pala and Kalinga. Basically the trade of Venice with a solid military and land empire. By 1400 they make contact with Europe and establish bases/colonies in the Americas while taking an empire including modern Indochina, Myanmar, India, Thailand, Sri Lanka, and Pakistan. Perhaps they fill in the vacuum left behind in the post-Mongol era and make a stab at Persia/central Asia as well. Eventually they conquer Ireland and use it as an agricultural colony followed by an invasion of England around the War of the Roses. Following this Europe begins to unite against the "New Pagan (Hindu) Empire" and all hell breaks loose. Heck, have the Cholas combine the Islamic, Chinese, and native thirst for learning to perhaps kickstart the Renaissance or Industrial Revolution 300+ years ahead of schedule.
 
Well, I'm not an expert on Indonesia, but I was assuming it would be a Muslim Javanese empire.

Of course Flocc has also predicated his Anglistan idea being the colony of a Muslim Mughal India, which wouldn't have been my choice if I'd have had the idea first (I would have thought that a Hindu India, perhaps a long-lasting Gupta empire, would be a more appropriate colonial power).

I used a Mughal-type government because it's fun to do a pastiche of Mughal/Persian/general-Islamic court language :D
 
Well, they are married, and I assume said Indian princess is Christian.

Of course, said marriage could easily be declared morgantic.

I don't think the English powers-that-be would take too kindly to a crown prince marrying an "Asiatic" at this point in time, even if she was a convert.

And besides, if she was a convert she'd have no standing whatsoever in India itself.
 
One possible way is to have, as the old thread name said, an Islamic Europe and Christian Middle East. Christianity is wiped out of Europe, but Islam is blocked by Persia in the North, which eventually goes Christian (spread from Byzantium, which becomes a mutual alley against Islam which takes Roman North Africa and Palestine.) Eventually Islam dominates Europe (or at least up to the Rhine, Italy and the British Islands). Germany remains Christian, but is weakened from years of war from both Pagans in the East and Muslims in the west and never becomes more then a highly militarized, massive march area. Christianity makes its way to India, maybe forced upon the Indians by a foreign nomad dynasty (Afghans?) which converted through contact with Persia. India remains divided, but Christian gets a foothold in the upper-caste in most of the North so when the foreigners are overthrown the dynasties that replace them are still Christian.

India becomes a loose confederation as well as a Christian bulwark and develops its navy from Princely states, as mentioned before, that excelled at trading. By this point Persia has weakened, been overrun by horse nomads from the North or Arabs from the South or both, the Byzantine Empire continually weakens under attack from the Arab South and West and the Pagan North and East and Germany has pushed East, but still is nothing compared to the massive Islamic Caliphate that encompasses France, Britain, Hispania and Northwest Africa. By the 17th Century India is under one, weak, king with trade posts all along Africa (East, West and South), some areas of the Persian Gulf and Indonesia. The Caliphate has shattered into dozens of warring principalities in Europe, with several large empire in North Africa and the Middle East fighting each other as much as there non-co-religious neighbors.

India seek to open up the closed markets of Europe with the pretext of liberating former Christian lands, but also wish not to anger the powerfully Muslim nations in the Middle East, so they bypass them and launch an invasion of England as a stepping stone to impose their will on the rest of Europe. It is successfully executed and the native Muslim Anglo-Saxons are divided into tributary states, trade posts and outright positions of various Indian nobles and minor kings. Most of the area around London is a direct royal possession of the Indian King and he is officially styled "Emperor of Anglia."

(Double Blind Standpoint) It's all quite unstoppable actually, a country as rich and populated with cultured people who love the sea and are fervently religious Christians should come to dominate Europe.
 

Keenir

Banned
Well, they are married, and I assume said Indian princess is Christian.

Perhaps....by the week of the wedding, she assuredly has converted anyway.

I don't think the English powers-that-be would take too kindly to a crown prince marrying an "Asiatic" at this point in time, even if she was a convert.

oooh, shades of the Armada. (that'll surely draw the patriotism of any fence-sitters in Britain) :D

Selim III's kid married into Scottish nobility in OTL.
(or is there an invisible-but-recognized line between Nobility and Royalty? (if there is, please point it out, as my glasses don't help me with it))


And besides, if she was a convert she'd have no standing whatsoever in India itself.

At the time, very likely so. But, in that ATL's future, if nationalism arises, an Indian Nationalist (seeking to lord it over the Anglos) would likely refer to the kid (and likely the kid's mum) as "the Indian who ruled Britain."
 
That ought to be the motto of the EU - "Europe: World Domination by virtue of the fact that no-one wants to come over here and conquer us as we have nothing worth taking" :D

I think you've just stumbled upon the concept we're going to need for EU's national anthem.

Sung to Beethoven's ode to joy>

There's nothing here that you would want but
you have something we have not
lots of resources not just coal
we shall make your gold our goal.

We'll enslave you using gunpowder
or something even louder
and quite nasty.

Go to Europe there's nothing there
but people going elsewhere.
 
If she converted from Islam, I could understand that, but what about Hinduism or Buddhism? Would they care so much?

There are no Buddhist royalty in India and as for Hindus, those of the princely castes would indeed care quite a bit. By converting she'd lose caste. This means that any child of hers wouldn't really be regarded as legitimate.
 
There are no Buddhist royalty in India and as for Hindus, those of the princely castes would indeed care quite a bit. By converting she'd lose caste. This means that any child of hers wouldn't really be regarded as legitimate.

The high-caste Hindus wouldn't be capable of compromising their religion for political ends?

After all, the good Catholic French outraged the Pope by allying with the Ottomans.
 
Before the arrival of Islam, Hinduism was considered compatible with all religions. Buddhism and Jainism were simply heterodox versions of Hinduism. Indians who followed foreign religions like Christianity never created enough of a stir to shake the majority's beliefs, and were pretty comfortably placed in the "foreigner caste".

So if you have a pre-Muslim POD, a strong, confident India could maintain this worldview, and an Indian royal marrying a Christian would be not much more shocking than, say, when Ashoka the Great converted to Buddhism and basically shifted all the royal funding away from the Brahmin to the Buddhist monks.
 

Thande

Donor
I think you've just stumbled upon the concept we're going to need for EU's national anthem.

Sung to Beethoven's ode to joy>

There's nothing here that you would want but
you have something we have not
lots of resources not just coal
we shall make your gold our goal.

We'll enslave you using gunpowder
or something even louder
and quite nasty.

Go to Europe there's nothing there
but people going elsewhere.

That's brilliant! :D
 
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