Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to create a scenario where an Indian state successfully dominates the British Isles, with a POD no earlier than 600 AD.
AH Challenge: India Colonizes Britain
- Thread starter Hobelhouse
- Start date
Belisarius fails to stop the Malwa Empire in Flint and Drake's series. The Angrezi Raj resettles the British Isles.
Oh, you want something non-ASB?
Oh, you want something non-ASB?
Perhaps one could achieve this by means of a dynastic alliance between Indian and English states (either both Christian or both Islamic).
Or some kind of federal British Empire could emerge in which India becomes the dominant state.
Or an Indian state could become the centre of an empire that just keeps expanding - dealing with the barbarians on their borders - until it absorbs the British Isles.
Or some kind of federal British Empire could emerge in which India becomes the dominant state.
Or an Indian state could become the centre of an empire that just keeps expanding - dealing with the barbarians on their borders - until it absorbs the British Isles.
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Thande
Donor
Yes, but why?
Russia could have had a dynastic alliance with Coptic Ethiopia, but why would they want to?
Suppose the English are the dominant power within a Scandinavian/Baltic Empire. Then the dynastic alliance could be to cement a political alliance against Russia (or something geographically equivalent).
Then at some point Britain loses her Scandinavian empire, but remains ruled from Delhi (or wherever).
Parts of India did have a strong maritime tradition, but I think they always traded with other areas of the Indian Ocean, and a little in the far western Pacific up to China. Like you say, its hard to think of something that they wanted from Europe the would make their merchants and sailors go beyond their "comfort zone" and into unknown waters the way spices, silk, and dreams of converting the heathen did for Europeans in OTL.
Should this not be a DBWI? After all, Anglistan has only recently been granted independence. Considering the massive infrastructure failures, it may not have been the best thing to do.
Oh, wait, nevermind.
Oh, wait, nevermind.
ninebucks
Banned
Hmm... from a quick wiki'ing, Britain has quite a bit of chalk, slate, limestone, and tin, which are almost absent from India, and could be quite useful. However, it seems that these trade links would only arise in a modernish setting, so the initial links would have to be made earlier.
Flocculencio
Donor
(1) is easy- plenty of South Indian states had extensive maritime traditions e.g. the Chola, Chera and Pandya thalassocracies.
(2) is the main problem. Europe has hardly anything that can't be found in the Indian subcontinent or elsewhere in Asia.
Ninebucks mentioned the mineral resources but there's no reason for Indians to go to Britian for tin and limestone- I'm sure that during the Bronze Age, Indians got their tin from other parts of Asia.
Hellolegend- One thing India doesn't lack for is variety in women. Fair-skinned slave girls can be got quite easily within the subcontinent. Besides, even if you hypothesise that they do want Nordic blondes and redheads, these are, in effect, luxury products and more easily obtainable through trade than conquest.
We would need to give India the maritime wherewithal - that's not too hard. Have any of the maritime powers Flocc listed marry their gear to the Chinese tradition and you're done. Or develop the capacity independently, it's just harder. As to a reason for the colonisation, I believe that from India, the path to America is still shorter around Africa than across the Pacific. So if India has a share in the American tradser, it'll be through the Atlantic. Of course, they might also be interested in getting a foot in the Mediterranean basin, and that won't work through Suez - the people there are civilised and have the technology to fight off an Indian force. A foothold onm the Continent is not advisable for military reasons (though eventually they might, who knows). So England could sere as India's main springboard to dominate the Atlantic and western Mediterranean trade. It has sufficient stands of timber, skilled craftsmen who can be taught to build proper seagoing ships, good recruiting for bluejacket lascars and loyal red-coated sepoys, and is easily defensible against any attack by rivals or European armies. Gibraltar, Malta, the Azores, Canaries, Balearics and Cape Verde Islands can all easily be resupplied from there. From a strategy POV it makes sense.
Well, one of the obvious problems is: how do the Indian colonists get to Europe?
I mean, it's not like as if there's an easy way to Europe from the Indian Ocean, even if the old "proto-Suez" canal could be used by the Indians (which is not going to be likely if there is a strong Caliphate effectively blocking this route), and the only alternative route is rounding Africa, which is an awfully long way to travel to colonize a place that has very few desirable resources that can be obtained more easily in other places...
And even if you would remove Islam or keep it fairly insignificant (according to tradition, Mohammed didn't start preaching until about 610 AD, so a POD to prevent the rise of Islam would still be possible), then that still leaves the fairly strong kingdom of Axum in control of the crucial Red Sea route towards Europe.
But nonetheless, some (perhaps dynastic) alliance between an Indian maritime power and Axum could be possible (which would be an interesting scenario, by the way), and the Indians and the Axumites could then establish a few colonies along the Red Sea coast, and due to the results of the last great Byzantine-Persian War, even Byzantine Egypt could be weak enough to allow the Indians and Axumites to effectively take control of the "proto-Suez" canal.
Now I know that especially that last part is not all that likely, since the Byzantine Empire still had a powerful navy in the Mediterranean, making it unlikely for even a combined Indian/Axumite force to take full control of the whole route. (after all, what use is a route that connects the Red Sea to the Mediterranean if the Mediterranean part of the route is blocked off by the Byzantine Navy?)
Only if there is some sort of treaty between the Byzantines and the Indian/Axumite alliance about using this canal would it be likely that the Byzantines would just let them use this route.
That - or the route becomes available because the Byzantines lose Egypt alltogether, and the scenario of Axumite and Indian colonists taking all of Byzantine Egypt is, least to say, not all that likely...
In fact, if the Arabs aren't gonna take Egypt (which is not very likely without a strong unifying force like Islam), then the only other nation that would actually have a chance of successfully invading and taking Egypt at this point, would be the neighbouring Christian Nubian kingdom of Makuria.
In OTL, Makuria actually managed to resist the Arab invasion and lasted until about the 14th century, so it may just be strong enough to invade Byzantine Egypt, which was not only severely weakened by the Byzantine-Persian War, but its Coptic population also suffered severely from religious persecution.
And if, during that invasion, the Axumites and Indians ally themselves with Makuria, then it would be likely that the Axumites and Indians either take full control of this "proto-Suez" canal, or can at least use it with little or no restrictions.
..
Allright, now we've gotten the Indians (and Axumites) in the Mediterranean...
Now suppose that they can just trade relatively freely in the Mediterranean (which is still largely controlled by the Byzantine Empire; it controls Cyrenaica, southern Italy, Byzantine Africa and most islands of the Mediterranean and the Empire still has a formidable navy), in order to get to Britain, they'll have to pass the Strait of Gibraltar first.
Now this might just be relatively easy (provided the Byzantine Empire doesn't interfere), because the Visigothic kingdom in Spain is crumbling during the 7th and 8th century, so there actually is a good opportunity to establish some colonies at strategical positions, including at Gibraltar itself, which would give the Indian/Axumite allies full control of this route.
Now then, these colonies, of which some would be on inaccessible parts of the southern Spanish coast and some others on the Northwest African coast, would be fairly independant from the Indian and Axumite homeland, and they would mainly live off local trade.
...and Britain indeed has some natural resources, like chalk, slate, limestone, and tin, which ninebucks has already mentioned, so Indian merciants based in these colonies around Gibraltar would indeed have a good reason to visit Britain.
And it just so happens to be that Britain wasn't quite united at this point, not to mention the fact that at this point, Britain itself was divided into warring Celtic and Saxon kingdoms.
At first, the Indian merciants could establish a few settlements and outposts on the British coast, trading and interacting with the local British and Saxons.
The next development is that these colonies could become relatively large and powerful city-states, which start to influence the neighbouring kingdoms. (note that in this scenario, the Indian/Axumite colonies around Gibraltar and on the British Isles are still one state)
And ultimately, these Indian colonies could start absorbing some smaller local kingdoms, and grow into a well-organized empire, which then conquers or just absorbs the remaining Celtic and Saxon states.
And after that, this empire could even expand towards Ireland and Scotland.
...and as long as the ruling classes and dominant culture remain Indian, we now have an Indian-ruled Britain.
I mean, it's not like as if there's an easy way to Europe from the Indian Ocean, even if the old "proto-Suez" canal could be used by the Indians (which is not going to be likely if there is a strong Caliphate effectively blocking this route), and the only alternative route is rounding Africa, which is an awfully long way to travel to colonize a place that has very few desirable resources that can be obtained more easily in other places...
And even if you would remove Islam or keep it fairly insignificant (according to tradition, Mohammed didn't start preaching until about 610 AD, so a POD to prevent the rise of Islam would still be possible), then that still leaves the fairly strong kingdom of Axum in control of the crucial Red Sea route towards Europe.
But nonetheless, some (perhaps dynastic) alliance between an Indian maritime power and Axum could be possible (which would be an interesting scenario, by the way), and the Indians and the Axumites could then establish a few colonies along the Red Sea coast, and due to the results of the last great Byzantine-Persian War, even Byzantine Egypt could be weak enough to allow the Indians and Axumites to effectively take control of the "proto-Suez" canal.
Now I know that especially that last part is not all that likely, since the Byzantine Empire still had a powerful navy in the Mediterranean, making it unlikely for even a combined Indian/Axumite force to take full control of the whole route. (after all, what use is a route that connects the Red Sea to the Mediterranean if the Mediterranean part of the route is blocked off by the Byzantine Navy?)
Only if there is some sort of treaty between the Byzantines and the Indian/Axumite alliance about using this canal would it be likely that the Byzantines would just let them use this route.
That - or the route becomes available because the Byzantines lose Egypt alltogether, and the scenario of Axumite and Indian colonists taking all of Byzantine Egypt is, least to say, not all that likely...
In fact, if the Arabs aren't gonna take Egypt (which is not very likely without a strong unifying force like Islam), then the only other nation that would actually have a chance of successfully invading and taking Egypt at this point, would be the neighbouring Christian Nubian kingdom of Makuria.
In OTL, Makuria actually managed to resist the Arab invasion and lasted until about the 14th century, so it may just be strong enough to invade Byzantine Egypt, which was not only severely weakened by the Byzantine-Persian War, but its Coptic population also suffered severely from religious persecution.
And if, during that invasion, the Axumites and Indians ally themselves with Makuria, then it would be likely that the Axumites and Indians either take full control of this "proto-Suez" canal, or can at least use it with little or no restrictions.
..
Allright, now we've gotten the Indians (and Axumites) in the Mediterranean...
Now suppose that they can just trade relatively freely in the Mediterranean (which is still largely controlled by the Byzantine Empire; it controls Cyrenaica, southern Italy, Byzantine Africa and most islands of the Mediterranean and the Empire still has a formidable navy), in order to get to Britain, they'll have to pass the Strait of Gibraltar first.
Now this might just be relatively easy (provided the Byzantine Empire doesn't interfere), because the Visigothic kingdom in Spain is crumbling during the 7th and 8th century, so there actually is a good opportunity to establish some colonies at strategical positions, including at Gibraltar itself, which would give the Indian/Axumite allies full control of this route.
Now then, these colonies, of which some would be on inaccessible parts of the southern Spanish coast and some others on the Northwest African coast, would be fairly independant from the Indian and Axumite homeland, and they would mainly live off local trade.
...and Britain indeed has some natural resources, like chalk, slate, limestone, and tin, which ninebucks has already mentioned, so Indian merciants based in these colonies around Gibraltar would indeed have a good reason to visit Britain.
And it just so happens to be that Britain wasn't quite united at this point, not to mention the fact that at this point, Britain itself was divided into warring Celtic and Saxon kingdoms.
At first, the Indian merciants could establish a few settlements and outposts on the British coast, trading and interacting with the local British and Saxons.
The next development is that these colonies could become relatively large and powerful city-states, which start to influence the neighbouring kingdoms. (note that in this scenario, the Indian/Axumite colonies around Gibraltar and on the British Isles are still one state)
And ultimately, these Indian colonies could start absorbing some smaller local kingdoms, and grow into a well-organized empire, which then conquers or just absorbs the remaining Celtic and Saxon states.
And after that, this empire could even expand towards Ireland and Scotland.
...and as long as the ruling classes and dominant culture remain Indian, we now have an Indian-ruled Britain.
Thande
Donor
That ought to be the motto of the EU - "Europe: World Domination by virtue of the fact that no-one wants to come over here and conquer us as we have nothing worth taking"
Thanks!
And by the way, the Indian Britain scenario that I created there actually has some quite interesting possebilities, for example: this empire will ethnically be a lot more diverse than OTL Britain, which just became plain Saxon dominated, and the religious developments will be interesting too.
For example: the Indian settlers will propably introduce elements of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, but also Oriental Christianity (from the Axumites and perhaps the Egyptians and Makurians) in Britain, while it is also interesting to see how the Celtic Church will react.
And the Saxons might remain pagan for a longer time.
as part of developing this scenario over in ASBs, I decided to reverse some more colonial fates.
How do you feel about the Javanese Netherlands?
First reaction: ouch!
...but when thinking about it, it is an interesting scenario, although not quite likely.
I mean, Britain may not have all that many natural resources compared to Asia, but the Netherlands has even less natural interesting resources... In fact, all the Netherlands have to offer is a land where it's cold, rainy, often cloudy, and covered in small forests, swamps, grasslands and dunelands, of which a good deal is under sealevel, and therefore quite vulnerable to floods...
And although I myself love my cold, wet and green country, I very much doubt that the average Javan would like it here...
They wouldn't come here for the climate, that's for sure!
However, there is one economical advantage that the Netherlands have: this country is situated on some of the most important trade routes of Western Europe, and controlling these trade routes could indeed be a good reason to colonize this country.
...and just one more question out of curiosity: were you thinking of the Netherlands as a colony of the Hindu-Buddhist Majapahit empire, or were you thinking of the Netherlands being a colony of a smaller Javan muslim state? (the Majapahit empire would seem more logical to me...)
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Keenir
Banned
I just realized it:
during the Edwardian era (or Victorian), one of the princes in line for the British throne marries a princess from one of the Princely States....the offspring is regarded by future Indian Nationalists writing textbooks as an Indian ruling over England.
(I suspect the Boers would go ape-sheet over this)
during the Edwardian era (or Victorian), one of the princes in line for the British throne marries a princess from one of the Princely States....the offspring is regarded by future Indian Nationalists writing textbooks as an Indian ruling over England.
(I suspect the Boers would go ape-sheet over this)