AH challenge - How to give China an overseas empire

I'm wondering what it would take to shift China into the kind of state that would expand overseas.

My initial thought is that during the Yuan dynasty, the Mongol's overseas expeditions (Japan, Java) are more successful. Java and at least part of Japan become Chinese provinces, and Chinese seagoing commerce expands correspondingly. When the Yuan dynasty is eventually overthrown, let's say the overseas provinces are kept, and a vigorous new dynasty decides to push outward some more, focusing on the islands to the east instead of the nomad lands to the west. Perhaps Chinese conquests are aimed at he Philippines and the rest of Indonesia? (Or, if we want to get somewhat wilder, Hawaii and even the Pacific Coast?)
 
I'm wondering what it would take to shift China into the kind of state that would expand overseas.

My initial thought is that during the Yuan dynasty, the Mongol's overseas expeditions (Japan, Java) are more successful. Java and at least part of Japan become Chinese provinces, and Chinese seagoing commerce expands correspondingly. When the Yuan dynasty is eventually overthrown, let's say the overseas provinces are kept, and a vigorous new dynasty decides to push outward some more, focusing on the islands to the east instead of the nomad lands to the west. Perhaps Chinese conquests are aimed at he Philippines and the rest of Indonesia? (Or, if we want to get somewhat wilder, Hawaii and even the Pacific Coast?)
China will conquer America or any empty territory that is sparsely populated,the chinese are not in any way interested in SE Asia because some south east asia kingdoms are their tributaries and allies,they will only war at hostile states.
 
I'm wondering what it would take to shift China into the kind of state that would expand overseas.

My initial thought is that during the Yuan dynasty, the Mongol's overseas expeditions (Japan, Java) are more successful. Java and at least part of Japan become Chinese provinces, and Chinese seagoing commerce expands correspondingly. When the Yuan dynasty is eventually overthrown, let's say the overseas provinces are kept, and a vigorous new dynasty decides to push outward some more, focusing on the islands to the east instead of the nomad lands to the west. Perhaps Chinese conquests are aimed at he Philippines and the rest of Indonesia? (Or, if we want to get somewhat wilder, Hawaii and even the Pacific Coast?)
Would any successful expedition launched by Kublai Khan's ilk necessarily be incorporated into Chinese territories, though? Even Tibet, which was conquered by the same Mongols as Song China, was ruled as a province separate from Yuan China. Why would the Mongols incorporate Java or Japan into Chinese territory if they didn't do the same to Tibet or Manchuria?
 
I imagine the Mongols would settle for a good round of pillaging followed by tributary status from both Japan and Java.

That would give the Chinese a merchant-navy tradition - or possibly not. After all, the Javanese and Japanese could sail to them themselves.

Either way, Yuan China won't turn into overseas colonizing superpower any time soon without concerted effort.
 
Would any successful expedition launched by Kublai Khan's ilk necessarily be incorporated into Chinese territories, though? Even Tibet, which was conquered by the same Mongols as Song China, was ruled as a province separate from Yuan China. Why would the Mongols incorporate Java or Japan into Chinese territory if they didn't do the same to Tibet or Manchuria?

I imagine the Mongols would settle for a good round of pillaging followed by tributary status from both Japan and Java.

That would give the Chinese a merchant-navy tradition - or possibly not. After all, the Javanese and Japanese could sail to them themselves.

Either way, Yuan China won't turn into overseas colonizing superpower any time soon without concerted effort.

Fair points. Revision time!

The Mongol expeditions succeed in this TL, and Japan and Java become Mongol (but not Yuan) territory. All the same, Chinese sailors and ships are key to the conquest, and also to keeping Mongol control of the islands as long as it lasts. When the Yuan dynasty falls, its successor takes over a China with a greater tradition of maritime commerce. Many of the places that Zheng He visited once or twice on tribute missions become regular destinations for Chinese merchants. An ambitious emperor or two launches expeditions of conquest in the islands of Southeast Asia in line with his/their interpretation of "All Under Heaven". The conquests aren't cheap, and the outward drive dies down after a century or so, but not before China has annexed an arc of territory from the Philippines down towards Java (and possibly including Vietnam for good measure). Interesting times await when the Europeans begin to move into the area, no doubt.

Better?
 
If the southern Song had survived the Mongols, there was a decent chance that it could've turned into a colonial power a la the Netherlands or England circa 1700's.
 
Fair points. Revision time!

The Mongol expeditions succeed in this TL, and Japan and Java become Mongol (but not Yuan) territory. All the same, Chinese sailors and ships are key to the conquest, and also to keeping Mongol control of the islands as long as it lasts. When the Yuan dynasty falls, its successor takes over a China with a greater tradition of maritime commerce. Many of the places that Zheng He visited once or twice on tribute missions become regular destinations for Chinese merchants. An ambitious emperor or two launches expeditions of conquest in the islands of Southeast Asia in line with his/their interpretation of "All Under Heaven". The conquests aren't cheap, and the outward drive dies down after a century or so, but not before China has annexed an arc of territory from the Philippines down towards Java (and possibly including Vietnam for good measure). Interesting times await when the Europeans begin to move into the area, no doubt.

Better?
Better, but Mimeyo's got a fair point regarding tributaries, allies, and all that. China had a lot of neighboring countries that paid them tribute, including (iirc) Vietnam and Malacca. It'd probably do China (are we talking about the Ming here, mostly?) more harm than good to attack one of their own tributaries and lose the trust of everyone around them.
 
Better, but Mimeyo's got a fair point regarding tributaries, allies, and all that. China had a lot of neighboring countries that paid them tribute, including (iirc) Vietnam and Malacca. It'd probably do China (are we talking about the Ming here, mostly?) more harm than good to attack one of their own tributaries and lose the trust of everyone around them.

How does this sound for a scenario. China surrounds itself with the usual ring of tributary states. Trade between these states and china thrives as a Pax Sinica forms around the region. During this time a prosperous Chinese merchant minority emerges in each of the tributary states. Economically their interests are tied to trade with the mother country, and China views it as its right to secure their safety. So when the invariable pogrom is launched against these rich "outsiders" china interveines and puts into place a more friendly government. Hence overtime, the tributary states gradually become defacto colonies.
 

Typo

Banned
The problem is that you need the Song to be strong enough to colonize, but not strong enough to retake the north.
 
How does this sound for a scenario. China surrounds itself with the usual ring of tributary states. Trade between these states and china thrives as a Pax Sinica forms around the region. During this time a prosperous Chinese merchant minority emerges in each of the tributary states. Economically their interests are tied to trade with the mother country, and China views it as its right to secure their safety. So when the invariable pogrom is launched against these rich "outsiders" china interveines and puts into place a more friendly government. Hence overtime, the tributary states gradually become defacto colonies.
Thing is, the bolded parts are all OTL. The Chinese populations of Manilla and Batavia/Jakarta are later examples of overseas Chinese mercantile communities, but there were earlier ones, too. The Chinese government just didn't care enough about the merchants to formally invest much in them.

I honestly can't say what would be needed to change the viewpoint of the government in Beijing/Nanjing/Xi'an/take-your-pick. While, yes, China has a vast coastline, it's generally tended to be a landlubber society, especially what with all the Turkic/Mongolian/barbarian invasions from the west and north.
 
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Skokie

Banned
Tough call. China is one of those countries, like France, that is so blessed geographically that it makes little sense for them to leave. "Why leave when we have everything we need right here?" as they say.
 
Thing is, the bolded parts are all OTL. The Chinese populations of Manilla and Batavia/Jakarta are later examples of overseas Chinese mercantile communities, but there were earlier ones, too. The Chinese government just didn't care enough about the merchants to formally invest much in them.

I know, thats why I mentioned it as a likely scenario. The seed for a colonial empire exists, its just the will to outright form it. Perhaps the rise of trans-national merchant families who operate what are effectively branch offices in multiple countries. These families would over time amass obscene quantities of wealth plying the various south eastern trade routes (once again OTL). The difference for the ATL is they manage to use their wealth to buy the emperor's ear, and in turn solidify the influence and prestege of the merchant class. Hence China becomes more willing to protect the interests of its wayward citizens, and overtime develops the colonial mindset.
 
You probably need the invention of the joint stock company. In which case funds could be raised for overseas venture projects without government involvement. Similar to how the Dutch VOC got started.
 
You probably need the invention of the joint stock company. In which case funds could be raised for overseas venture projects without government involvement. Similar to how the Dutch VOC got started.

This has a problem though. The joint stock comapnies for the Europeans were after rare exotics, like porcelain, spices, sugar, and silk.

See the issue?
 
Maybe the Chinese could suddenly develop a lust for....um....Baltic amber?

I've heard worse ideas, but getting to the Baltic seems hard.

Mind, I could see a *Ming thassalocracy in Indonesia, to control Eurasia's spice trade.

Then the Portuguese arrive, for the spice must flow.
 
The problem is that you need the Song to be strong enough to colonize, but not strong enough to retake the north.

It wouldn't be that hard. What would be needed to be a colonial power was different from what was needed to be a continental power. Having a strong navy would protect south China, but not necessarily give the ability to take the north. Especially in the 13th century. Metallogy was still primitive and having a great navy doesn't necessarily mean having technological and doctrinal advantage in land warfare. It's very possible that the Song armies still suck and can't do much beyond staying on defensive. It would take only an average emperor to defend south China from the Mongols. It would take a genious emperor of the highest order to defeat the Mongols and retake the north.
 
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