AH challenge have the Quing Empire survive

Paging Hendryk... but you'd definitely need to have Cixi kick the can somehow. Was there any Stolypin analogue who could become a PM without the title? IIRC there was a plan to create provincial legislatures in 1908, followed by a national parliament in 1911.
 
Paging Hendryk... but you'd definitely need to have Cixi kick the can somehow. Was there any Stolypin analogue who could become a PM without the title? IIRC there was a plan to create provincial legislatures in 1908, followed by a national parliament in 1911.

So Wif in 1900 tired of Cixi rule a Top general decides to kill her and sieze the throne, so he kills Cixi and siezes the throne..... Is this possible, the alternative would be that the peaseants rise up once again overthrowing Cixi and then some warlord siezes the Chinese throne.... Would either of these pods work?
 
So Wif in 1900 tired of Cixi rule a Top general decides to kill her and sieze the throne, so he kills Cixi and siezes the throne..... Is this possible, the alternative would be that the peaseants rise up once again overthrowing Cixi and then some warlord siezes the Chinese throne.... Would either of these pods work?

IIRC, in 1898 Liang Qichao approached Yuan Shikai with an appeal to throw the weight of the Beiyang Army behind Kang Youwei's reforms and stop Cixi's planned coup. What if Yuan didnt turn him down?
 
What about having Cixi die in the aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion? The Iron Hat conservative faction then tries to overthrow the Guangxu emperor but fails. This gives the Guangxu emperor what amounts to effectively a free hand to re-institute the reforms of 1898.
 
What about having Cixi die in the aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion? The Iron Hat conservative faction then tries to overthrow the Guangxu emperor but fails. This gives the Guangxu emperor what amounts to effectively a free hand to re-institute the reforms of 1898.

You know that makes perfect sense!!! Anyone interested in such a tl;)
 
Just found the schedule: constitution in 1906, provincial legislatures in 1908, imperial parliament in 1911. The constitution would probably be a federal structure, with parliamentary supremacy and a constitutional monarchy made explicit in Article I. They would need to import European advisers to completely revamp the armed forces along Western lines. Yuan Shikai's New Armies had become 2/3 of the regular Army by 1911 IOTL, so that process is mostly complete. Just need modern equipment. The navy was not that lucky, so start from scratch. Nascent air force- no idea.

On the political side, the provinces wouldn't have to change that much. Just that the governors will now be popularly elected instead of appointed. Economically, breakneck industrialization: it won't be easy transitioning from a feudal to an industrial, urbanized society.
 
IIRC, in 1898 Liang Qichao approached Yuan Shikai with an appeal to throw the weight of the Beiyang Army behind Kang Youwei's reforms and stop Cixi's planned coup. What if Yuan didnt turn him down?
Still wouldn't be post -1900, which is the biggest single problem with the OP.
 
So Wif in 1900 tired of Cixi rule a Top general decides to kill her and sieze the throne, so he kills Cixi and siezes the throne..... Is this possible, the alternative would be that the peaseants rise up once again overthrowing Cixi and then some warlord siezes the Chinese throne.... Would either of these pods work?
Then, by definition, it's not Qing, so it doesn't meet the challenge.
 
Here is my Challenge.... With a POD of After 1900 find a way for the Quing to retain power in China so that they do not get overthrown.
BTW, if you want to discuss Chinese dynasties, it helps to get the spelling right.

I see, both here and in other threads, that you're spelling 'Qing' with a 'u'. 'Q' is pronounced something like the English 'ch', so that 'u' looks.... really weird. FYI.
 
Post-1900 is too late even if Cixi will die. China's major cities are now occupied by the western powers. The better latest POD is 1870, when Cixi killed by the orders of Tongzhi Emperor and then he opened China's economy to foreign investment and modernize the army and the navy to compete the Russians and the Japanese though the US or British aid. Then, the western powers will not bother to occupy any Chinese cities.
 

loughery111

Banned
Doing this with a post-1900 POD is definitely borderline ASB. Killing off Cixi is a damned good start, but the question at this point becomes: who or what do we replace her with? I can't think of anyone, off the top of my head, with whom we could replace her. At least not anyone who would manage to arrest the decline of the Empire and pretty much implement the "Meiji 2.0" crash modernization program that China would need to not be screwed over by either the Japanese, the Europeans, or the Soviets.
 
I'm not so sure that a 1900 POD is all too late for a Qing resurgence. Let's face it, even in OTL, in it's last years the Qing Dynasty experienced somewhat of a resurgence. The army was reorganized, frontiers established/expanded, industrialization pursued etc. However conservative elements IMO derailed the entire process by stalling efforts to create a parliament etc. thereby playing right into the hands of burgeoning anti-Qing revolutionaries.

In TTL said conservative factions of the Qing court would be deeply undercut by the recent failure of the Boxer rebellion and a subsequent attempt to overthrow the Guangxu Emperor. This would leave the moderates/liberals fully in charge and capable of listening to people such as Kang Youwei (perhaps even bringing him into the government) and others who promoted not the overthrow of the Qing but it's reform.

By allowing for an even greater adoption of reforms (and longer) the Qing can begin to rebuild and perhaps put themselves in a position to take advantage of the chaos caused by WWI/The Russian Civil War. Let's all remember that Hendryk's "Superpower Empire" TL starts with a later POD and isn't regarded as irrational by a long shot.

(This also isn't to say that the Qing Dynasty will last forever, indeed Japanese/Russian ambitions could very well problematic in the future. But certainly a POD in 1900 with a successful reform/liberalization/centralization process would give the dynasty at least another decade or two than OTL)
 

loughery111

Banned
I'm not so sure that a 1900 POD is all too late for a Qing resurgence. Let's face it, even in OTL, in it's last years the Qing Dynasty experienced somewhat of a resurgence. The army was reorganized, frontiers established/expanded, industrialization pursued etc. However conservative elements IMO derailed the entire process by stalling efforts to create a parliament etc. thereby playing right into the hands of burgeoning anti-Qing revolutionaries.

In TTL said conservative factions of the Qing court would be deeply undercut by the recent failure of the Boxer rebellion and a subsequent attempt to overthrow the Guangxu Emperor. This would leave the moderates/liberals fully in charge and capable of listening to people such as Kang Youwei (perhaps even bringing him into the government) and others who promoted not the overthrow of the Qing but it's reform.

By allowing for an even greater adoption of reforms (and longer) the Qing can begin to rebuild and perhaps put themselves in a position to take advantage of the chaos caused by WWI/The Russian Civil War. Let's all remember that Hendryk's "Superpower Empire" TL starts with a later POD and isn't regarded as irrational by a long shot.

(This also isn't to say that the Qing Dynasty will last forever, indeed Japanese/Russian ambitions could very well problematic in the future. But certainly a POD in 1900 with a successful reform/liberalization/centralization process would give the dynasty at least another decade or two than OTL)

Never read his TL, truthfully. I'll defer to someone else who has more expertise; as my comment (I hope) implied, mine is limited when it comes to late-Qing Chinese history. I've kinda been focusing on the language, which eats up considerable time. :D
 
What about having Cixi die in the aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion? The Iron Hat conservative faction then tries to overthrow the Guangxu emperor but fails. This gives the Guangxu emperor what amounts to effectively a free hand to re-institute the reforms of 1898.

BTW, if you want to discuss Chinese dynasties, it helps to get the spelling right.



I see, both here and in other threads, that you're spelling 'Qing' with a 'u'. 'Q' is pronounced something like the English 'ch', so that 'u' looks.... really weird.





FYI.







Srry it is a typo.....::eek:









Oh btw actually I do know about Chinese history, the reason I wanted some
general to
take the Chinese thrones was because it was commonplace in China, stating from the Qin dynasty onwards a dynasty would rule china
for a couple centuries then get overthrown due to extravagant and lavish rulers. Actually I want cao Xi dead so that the guangxu emperor would be able to assert himself once more and continue his reforms. It is simple the general kills Cao Xi then he tries killing the Guangxu emperor but fails. He gets caught and executed but with Cao Xi dead the gaungxu emperor
can reassert his power and continue the meiji like reforms in china. What do you guys think;)
 
I'm not so sure that a 1900 POD is all too late for a Qing resurgence. Let's face it, even in OTL, in it's last years the Qing Dynasty experienced somewhat of a resurgence. The army was reorganized, frontiers established/expanded, industrialization pursued etc. However conservative elements IMO derailed the entire process by stalling efforts to create a parliament etc. thereby playing right into the hands of burgeoning anti-Qing revolutionaries.

In TTL said conservative factions of the Qing court would be deeply undercut by the recent failure of the Boxer rebellion and a subsequent attempt to overthrow the Guangxu Emperor. This would leave the moderates/liberals fully in charge and capable of listening to people such as Kang Youwei (perhaps even bringing him into the government) and others who promoted not the overthrow of the Qing but it's reform.

By allowing for an even greater adoption of reforms (and longer) the Qing can begin to rebuild and perhaps put themselves in a position to take advantage of the chaos caused by WWI/The Russian Civil War. Let's all remember that Hendryk's "Superpower Empire" TL starts with a later POD and isn't regarded as irrational by a long shot.

(This also isn't to say that the Qing Dynasty will last forever, indeed Japanese/Russian ambitions could very well problematic in the future. But certainly a POD in 1900 with a successful reform/liberalization/centralization process would give the dynasty at least another decade or two than OTL)

Never read his TL, truthfully. I'll defer to someone else who has more expertise; as my comment (I hope) implied, mine is limited when it comes to late-Qing Chinese history. I've kinda been focusing on the language, which eats up considerable time. :D


Note, however, that Hendryk's TL is NOT a 'Qing survive'. I agree, that China can become a major power with a PoD after 1900, it's just really, REALLY tough for it to happen under the Qing. IMO.
 
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