AH Challenge: Hansa Germany

Firstly, let me point out that when I say the challenge is to form Germany from the Hanseatic League, I actually mean the challenge is to form Germany from a Trading League which does not necessarily need to be the Hanseatic League. It's just that 'Hansa Germany' has more of a ring to it.

The original idea for this topic came from the old Map Continuation 3, where Northern Germany gradually consolidates into a single entity through a Hanseatic League turned alliance turned federation. I thought this kind of scenario would be very interesting to explore, including the politics of such an organisation and colonies being founded across the New World by a branch of a much larger trading league. It will likely be necessary to curtail the other Baltic powers, such as Sweden and Denmark, to allow the League room to shine. Of course, my knowledge of the Hansa itself is rather slim, so this is why I am asking the experts.

Your challenge, should you accept it, is to create a German trading league that manages to eventually for an analogue for Germany. It must also be able to compete with the primary colonial powers in both the Occident and the Orient, although not necessarily directly. It doesn't necessarily need to become the dominant colonial power, just a relatively successful one. There is a PoD limit, it is not allowed to be earlier that 1200 AD and no later than 1700 AD.

I know this challenge is difficult, and I'll probably get shouted at from some of the German members here, so you all are given leeway in terms of the birth this 'League' and its general success in unifying the whole of Germany. Anyway, enough of the chatter, what would you say would work best to achieve the challenge?
 
Sounds tough to me. The Hansa, or most other Unions of trading city-states/nations, have a couple of disadvantages. 1) they trade by water, so they're mostly coastal. Much of German is inland, and not an obvious choice for coalescing around a coastal 'state'. 2) a trading league is likely to be more interested in trade than warfare. How well can such a thing survive once Nation-States/large empires arise.

A stronger, bigger, longer lasting Hansa would, I think be possible, but I'd think, it would more likely be a Baltic commercial empire than a nucleus for Germany....

Hmm... Novgorod, Riga, Kopenhagen (heck that's already 'Merchant's Harbour'), Amsterdam... Getting a colonial empire (even if it's largely city states, like the original) could be possible...
 
How about this then: Hanseatic League survives to this day as a powerful multi-national corporation that actually owns large municipalities (Hansa cities) outright.

So basically, an openly corporate/government mixture.
 
The basic problem is:
"Germany" existed at that time, if you count the mostly German-speaking HRE as "Germany".
Perhaps you are alluding to the fact that the HRE was not as strongly connected
as countries like France and Spain.
But then a trading union between free cities is automatically an even looser combination.
So I am not sure what kind of state-building process you are aiming at.
 
1) they trade by water, so they're mostly coastal. Much of German is inland, and not an obvious choice for coalescing around a coastal 'state'.

At the climax of its power, the Hansa included cities well up to the "waistline" of Germany, like Cologne, Magdeburg, Frankfurt.



I think the biggest issues with the Hansa is that for most of the time, especially in the later period,
the leading cities agreed on a relatively loose union, based on trading only;
and that they strived to conserve the rules and institutions of the old Hansa with as
few modifications as possible. For instance, if you change this and let the Hansa
embrace structures which are more effective in the day, you can maintain a certain
role of it with a PoD as late as 1600. A role as a trading club, that is.
 
The Hansa also had a significant influence in non-German areas. Hansa cities at its heyday included London, Brüges, basically all important Danish cities, Visby and several other Swedish cities, Tallin (back then known as Reval) and Amsterdam.

Its power centre was in modern day Germany though, but it wasn't constricted to that area.
 
So I am not sure what kind of state-building process you are aiming at.
Indeed, a clearer explanation would be helpful. I am currently writing down ideas and twists for a timeline that is in development, when I say development I mean a list of ideas on MS Word for now, and one of them if a sort of 'German Colonial Company'. Essentially, the original aim was to have a sort of Hanseatic-like League/Company that would expand into the new world, not quite colonising to start with but land grabbing for profit. At the same time this company would be able to not only defend themselves against pirate raiders and the navies of minor nations, but retain its new holdouts in the Americas/India against rival nations.

However, I found it rather difficult to envision a company such as this without having some form of unified German state to back it up, or else the other powers would likely gobble it up. That is why I set up this thread, to see if it were possible.

The Hansa also had a significant influence in non-German areas. Hansa cities at its heyday included London, Brüges, basically all important Danish cities, Visby and several other Swedish cities, Tallin (back then known as Reval) and Amsterdam.
True, although the Dutch were considered German at that point in time I am looking at, and the eastern coast of the Baltic was run by the primarily German Teutonic Order. I wanted to see how much of all that territory you could acquire for the League-State.
 
The Hansa was able to maintain detachements in so many countries because
it was apolitical. It also included cities which were under the formal rule of some prince.


Essentially, the original aim was to have a sort of Hanseatic-like League/Company that would expand into the new world, not quite colonising to start with but land grabbing for profit.

You are right in seeing some possible chain of processes there.
But it seems a bit dangerous to jump so quickly between centuries.

Perhaps you are going to found a second Netherlands, not necessarily
seceeding from the Empire. The urban society and politics, the naval and commerical
expertise was pretty much comparable between the Netherlands and the
big Hansa cities in (the rest of) Germany. So there is definitely potential.


But how should the switch take place from commercial collaboration to political union?
The Hansa, even at the crest of its power, did not even hold the structures of a central
authority which would be necessary for larger political projects.


On the other hand, there are plenty of opportunities throughout history
to extend or maintain Hansa power. For instance, rulers become dependant
on the Hansa because of large loan sums (e.g. Christian III. of Denmark
could become a lot more dependant than IOTL).
A nice starting point, or helping effect, would also have Hansa cities taking grip
of their surrounding rural areas; e.g. let Bremen have the archbishopric Bremen
after the reformation.

But these are just tiny steps, we still need the "switch".
One construction comes to my mind:
For some reason, other Hansa cities get jealous of the city ruling a territory.
To appease the fellow cities, Bremen implies a common rule of the Hansa council on
that country, as it is more important for the city to save the region from greedy princes
than to own it alone. This causes more political structure and unity in the Hansa.
The model of governing can be copied to other counties, and secularized bishoprics.
And it can serve as a model for colonies.
But this needs very week princes in the surrounding areas (perhaps by the corruption
style mentioned above).
A bit hard, still ...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
To make this succed you need to make the Hansa a territorial power raqther than a confederation of citystates, the best way is that their continued conflict with Denmark end with one or better several of the Hansa cities take over Denmark to secure their Baltic trade, from their you can end up in new conflicts with the different North German Principalities, and slowly unified into some kind of North German Switzerland, I'm not sure they will succed in uniting Germany, but we could end up with a large North German/Danish/Baltic state centred on Lübeck and Hamburg.
 
However, I found it rather difficult to envision a company such as this without having some form of unified German state to back it up, or else the other powers would likely gobble it up.

I don't think that is necessary.
Look at the Netherlands: A successful colonial power, but tiny even in contrast
to larger imperial feudal states.
The key is urbanization, and Bremen-Hamburg-Lübeck-Wismar-Stralsund are
definitely not worse off than Rotterdam-Amsterdam.


Perhaps you might compare to Brandenburg's trading company in the late 17th century,
which tried to get a foothold in the upcoming colonial world, and to compete with
the Netherlands. It failed because Brandenburg did not have the necessary expertise.
The investment capital could also have been larger, which is where you again need cities.
But you can see from this example that you do not need a unified Germany -
a chain of wealthy cities and a moderate rural area will do.
 
I'm a big fan of merchant leagues, but they are very difficult to keep together and they usually fall sooner or (usually not much) later in the hands of some nasty king or emperor.
It is quite similar to the curse of Venice: if they stay out of terra firma and concentrate on traffic and colonies their manpower base is quite low and they have no strategic depth. If they try and expand on the Italian mainland (as Venice did, quite successfully) league after league formed after them, and Venice managed to stay out of worse troubles by avoiding any further expansion on the mainland after the Holy League wars (which they were quite lucky to survive). Holland (or better the United Provinces) is a bit of an exception to the rule, but IMHO they were forced to fight by Spanish oppression and religious issues rather than by free will; and ultimately they were more of a principality than a true republic when everything is told.

Merchants are appreciated if they pay their taxes and are not too much aggressive: think of them as a herd or not-very-belligerent cows who put up a fight only if their back is against the wall. And even then there is always some brighter guy who believes a conqueror can be better bought off than fought.

A further point is that IIRC there was quite a rift between the western Hansa and the Baltic Hansa (actually I think there was even a third party involved, which I think included the Rhenish Anseatic cities): the interests (and even the goods traded) were quite different and often opposite.
 

mowque

Banned
Would a shift to political control and power merely change the League anyway? And entice rivals who are 'real' states?
 
The only real chance I see is if somehow the Hansa becomes a symbol of German nationalism, and turns into a loose German confederation. Something tells me it would be rather weak if it stayed a Hansa, however. Perhaps if later on someone takes over and centralises it. Otherwise, it's going to be a good snack for the French and the Austrians, who are centralised around a monarch and nation respectively. Perhaps with Russia in the east.
 
Could we have the Hansa league merchants in one city rebel against the local duke or prince or whatever and eventually overthow him and fund a sort of Venice-like merchant republic? They would need to have some substantial support though, or the emperor will just crush them.
 
The only real chance I see is if somehow the Hansa becomes a symbol of German nationalism, and turns into a loose German confederation. Something tells me it would be rather weak if it stayed a Hansa, however. Perhaps if later on someone takes over and centralises it. Otherwise, it's going to be a good snack for the French and the Austrians, who are centralised around a monarch and nation respectively. Perhaps with Russia in the east.

It might well be the way. This cannot happen in the 17th century, though: best bet would be that the Hansa is portrayed as the epythome of German liberties by romantic writers and historians of the early 19th century; then the Frankfurt parliament in 1848 does not offer the crown to the king of Prussia, but votes for a republican league to be established in Germany.
A bit farfetched, I know :p
 
Top