AH Challenge: German Nukes

The Challenge is that by 2000 Germany has an independent nuclear deterrent, no nuclear sharing. The POD has to be no earlier than 1945, so no 'Nazi's win WW2' scenarios.

I am not specifying which Germany will get them, but I would think West Germany would get them, because I doubt the USSR would like a nuclear armed Germany, even if it is own ally.
 
I think a good place to start is if the US manages to end the Pacific War without the use of nuclear weapons. Without a live demostration of the atom bomb, the horror and stigma of nuclear weaponry is avoided.

This will probably lead to the SU to be more receptive of nuclear weapons on German soil.
 
No NPT, so the nuclear-weapons-sharing states are actually given their bombs. This includes Italy, West Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece and Turkey (plus Canada and the UK, but they are not relevant in this discussion). The German system would have consisted of B61 tactical weapons mounted on F-104 fighter-bombers. US-made weapons, but an independent deterrent in that only the Germans have the key.

Alos, considering that Italy had a nuclear program in the early 70s, Germany might have followed.
 
That is an easy solution. Also, an East German Nuke is possible, if the Germans are extremely secretive about it, and detonate it before the Soviets find out what they are building.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
That is an easy solution. Also, an East German Nuke is possible, if the Germans are extremely secretive about it, and detonate it before the Soviets find out what they are building.

Where should they have donated it, over Moscow?
Or should they have bombed Bonn?
Germany (especially East Germany) really is to densly settled for a test site.
 
Well, in 1957 OTL the west german government had ideas of getting a nuclear armament for the Bundeswehr, but after several scientists advising against it (and being Part of the NATO and therefore getting protection from that) they finally dropped it.
So maybe with Adenauer und Strauß being more firm (or the scientist say someting different), we'd get the PoD post-45.
 
1967 - As Minister of Education Olof Palme is revealed as a Soviet Agent.
The Swedish vote in the about nuclear weapons ends in a YES and Sweden soon starts producing home grown nuclear weapons.

1975 - Switzerland buys Swedish nuclear weapons.

... German opinion is affected by their smaller neighbours getting nukes and they see an opportunity of getting their own weapons from Sweden?
 
Originally posted by Scurck
1975 - Switzerland buys Swedish nuclear weapons.

In fact in 1958 in OTL a decision of the Federal Government of Switzerland indicated that they want to equip his armed forces with nuclear weapons. (I obtained this information in a 1984 World almanac chronology of Switzerland)

In the web

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Library/Swissdoc.html

Italians also were interested in developing an independent nuclear force:

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/alfa.htm

With these examples, in fact Germany and other countries could in different circumstances have decided the same and in a different ATL we could have until 10 european countries armed with his own nuclear forces. (although some of this could to be de facto controlled by other country, eg. a nuclear German Democratic Republic de fact would have his nuclear forces controlled by the Soviet Union)
 

Glen

Moderator
The Challenge is that by 2000 Germany has an independent nuclear deterrent, no nuclear sharing. The POD has to be no earlier than 1945, so no 'Nazi's win WW2' scenarios.

I am not specifying which Germany will get them, but I would think West Germany would get them, because I doubt the USSR would like a nuclear armed Germany, even if it is own ally.

Hmmm...maybe they can get something developed by the 1960s. I could see them trying to keep the whole thing under wraps, but they'd have to test it, though there's always the chance they could do something out far out in the Ocean, where they wouldn't be traced....
 
I think You are overestimating the technical problems and/or underestimating the (West) German Nuclear Industry before we went "green" over here.

Germany has been exporting nuclear technology since the 1970´s.; e.g. the improved centrifuge recently introduced by the US is based on a German design they encountered in Iraq.

I have been told - sorry, no link - that in 1975 we would have needed 6 months to get a few crude devices and 2+ years to get more advanced bombs. Today, we are reducing nuclear research, so it might take longer. But 30+ years also means that the general tech base has advanced, so it might be possible to rush such a project. I do not know.

The real question is the political will and the consequences of Germany going nuclear.

Any nation occupied by Germany in WW II that has no nuclear program would start one, relations would deteriorate, panic ... not good.

I assume that one needs an increased threat level and

1) a loss of the nuclear umbrella of NATO (i.e. US)
2) no alternate European structure (e.g. EU Army)
3) no extension of the French nuclear umbrella

to motivate Germany to acquire nukes. But I believe that France really prefers a non-nuclear neighbor. They would offer it some kind of nuclear protection/cooperation as they did IRL.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Couldn't this be remedied by Soviets placing nukes in East Germany, and when the reunification occurs, Germany keeps them? Sort of like how Ukraine and such got nukes by default from the Soviet Breakup. (I might be totally wrong here, so someone please correct me if I am).
 
Germany hat REAL PLANS for Build Nuclear Wapons in 1950s !

no Joke

Federal Minister of Defence Franz Josef Strauss (from 1956 bis 1962)
he was also Federal Minister of Nuclear Energy (from 1955 bis 1956)
FJS wanted a "German Nucleare Dissuasion" against USSR forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Josef_Strauss

there were several proposal

one
Get Nuke by NATO
two
Build them self.

FJS taken last option very serious.

as Minister he purchase of the F-104G Starfighter in 1961
not as "Lockheed bribery scandals", because the F-104 was better for a Nuclear strike option !

by Diplomatic channel Germans start to Ask for Help at France for Nuke Program.
to find to there surprice France were alrady working on Nuclear Wapon !
but need technical Help

this happen alsmost with EURATOM deal were France was looking for partners in 1956

so Germany help the Program with german high tech parts
(so France A-Bomb is realy a France-German co product :D )

FJS abandon the German Nuke program in favor for French bomb
for him is better that only one Independent Europan Nation has the "Nucleare Dissuasion" against USSR.

do the "Der Spiegel" scandal
Franz Josef Strauss was forced to resign as Minister of Defence in 1962
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiegel_scandal

Later Germany had Nuclear Wapons onder NATO
means German had the delivery system, but USA The nuclear Warheads

Wat If Strauss stay in Office ?

in 1963 "Deutsch-Französische Freundschaft" Franco-German Partnership
which was signed as Élysée Treaty.

Federal Minister of Defence Strauss and his French conterpart Pierre Messmer
get a secret part on Élysée Treaty
to Install a german version of French "Force de frappe". (nuclear Force)
with German-French Hardware.
and Joint withdrew from the common NATO military command until 1966


On 24 August 1968 France Test there the hydrogen bomb
the gest President Charles de Gaulle and Chancellor Kurt Georg Kiesinger
 
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