AH challenge: Franco-German Alliance

Susano

Banned
Yes, the catholic movements were sooo progessive. Hmpf. I would fully say that while Bismarck entered the Kulturkampf for all the wrong reasons, and used at tiem sosme pretty repressive methods, in the end Germany came out of it better due to the successes socred by the government. The best outcome would have been full secularisation a la France, but still it was better than nothing.

And I dont see how that would be any help, either. What would be the unifiyng threat to the "progressiev forces"? Russia, all on its own? Hardly. And Britain was plenty progressive itself.
 
One question which has always perplexed me was why no one ever suggests splitting Alscace-Lorraine, If I remember my Western Civ. correctly Alsace was predominately German and Lorraine French, So would handing back just Lorraine with its Francophone population be enough to appease the French and garner more positive relations?
 

Susano

Banned
Well, yes, Lorraine was predominantly French, but Alsace-Lorraien included only a small part of Lorraine, the region around Metz - which was predominantly German. The border wasnt perfectly along the ethnic border, there was a sliver of land in Lorraine and North Alsace at the political border which as in majority ethnic French, but it came close, actually.

The issue was that despite the German language and origins of the Alsace-lorrainian population, many nontheless identified as Frenchmen, or as Alsatians (there was mcuh unrest when France reanenxed teh region after WW1, so it must be said France wasnt much better, and indeed was much worse in the issue of treatment of the respectively other language...) . I guess in time that could have been changed, however additionally, Germany trreated A-L as a virtual colony, which... did not help matters, of course.

Now, A-L as own member of the German Empire, maybe under a Prussian cadet line might have changed the latter issue, creating less alienation of the population from Germany, but it would not solve French revanchism and irredentism, which was completly seperated from teh issue how the A-L population was treated, Id say.
 
Now, A-L as own member of the German Empire, maybe under a Prussian cadet line might have changed the latter issue, creating less alienation of the population from Germany, but it would not solve French revanchism and irredentism, which was completly seperated from the issue how the A-L population was treated, Id say.

Germany actually granted autonomy to the "Reichsland" in 1911 (that is, equal rights compared to the other parts of Germany). Alsace-Lorraince had from then on a constitution, a freely-elected Parliament and its own members in the Reichsrat (in the Reichstag since 1874). Just as the citystates Bremen, Hamburg and Lübeck, Alsace-Lorraine got no own crown.

This was probably too late, too little.

The interesting point is the voting pattern in Alsace-Lorraine.There were 15 constituencies in France which until 1887 went exclusively to French nationalists. As Germany had a "Winner-takes-it-all" system à la the UK, this numbers remained high until WW1 (7-10 seats).

However, in percentage, the 90% plus majorities for the pro-French fell below 50% in 1887, never to rise above this line again.

The majority of Alsatians, mainly in the cities, then voted for German parties, especially the SPD.

I speculate that by the 1920s, it might have been pretty safe for the Germans to allow a referendum in Elsaß-Lothringen. Afterwards, French irredentism would seem more and more outdated in the international context.
 

Susano

Banned
There is even an example for that IOTL, Flensburg. It was still lingually Danish in majority at the end of WW1, yet voted to stay with Germany, mostly out of the loyalty of the citys working class to the SPD... so, yes, its not unreasonable to extend that scenario to at least the cities of Alsace-Lorraine.
 
What do you think the EU is? :rolleyes:

Good idea, I thought about it as well. But, technically the Reich is not a member of it but the Federal Republic of Germany. I understand the challenge in a way that France (the 3rd republic!) and Germany in one of its pre-1945 constitutions (Kaiserreich, Reform-Kaiserreich of 1918, Weimar Republic, 3rd Reich) get allied...

@Susano:

I looked up the numbers. The actual proportion of French-speakers in Elsaß-Lothringen due to the German census ranged between 10-11%, mainly around Metz (the city itself was predominantly German speaking). To be fair, though, one has to admit that about 100,000 people left for France in the 1870s, so one should add a few percents to calculate the prewar ethnicity of the region.

However, this discussion leads us further and further away from the challenge.

How about a much more successful Communist revolution in Russia, steamrolling Poland in 1920 and then aiding the comrades in Hungary and Germany. <br>
For some time, France stands on the sidelines, watching the Freikorps and the slowy re-arming regular Heer getting pushed back. When the Red Army crosses the Elbe near Dresden, Reichskanzler Fehrenbach's pleas for help are finally heard and France and Britain come to Germany's help in 1921.

Too ASBish?
 
Good idea, I thought about it as well. But, technically the Reich is not a member of it but the Federal Republic of Germany. I understand the challenge in a way that France (the 3rd republic!) and Germany in one of its pre-1945 constitutions (Kaiserreich, Reform-Kaiserreich of 1918, Weimar Republic, 3rd Reich) get allied...

Twas a joke ... not a very funny one but a joke none the less :)
 
Non-ASB POD at some point after 1871? The Lamy-Verheugen plan is accepted in 2003. Common enemy is Al Quaida :p
 
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