AH Challenge: Earlier German Identity

And just to annoy the sensibilities of Slavophiles further,

Slavophile I may be, but as Susano can tell you I also hold an honrary Ze Germans membership. Seriously, can't we all just get along?

I shall go and state that a Hohenstaufen unification almost surely means that the OTL boundaries of Germanization in the East pushed rather further: at the very least Western Poland,

Give me and actual reason why the Hohenstaufen will conquer western Poland. It can most certainly not contain the words "Drang Nach Osten".

Seriously, are you trying to give Germanophilia a bad name?

most of Slovakia, and Western Hungary would be assimilated, bringing the linguistic boundary on the Warta and the Danube, if not further.

I repeat: why? Also, I certainly hope you're aware that Hungarians are not Slavs.
 

Susano

Banned
Eh, I disagree about the league. Why would a group of princes opposed to the Emperor proceed to centralize the state?

Eh, true. Heh, I said pretty much the same to you in AIM... it would work I guess if the League went crazy and decided they want to replace Habsburg. But as said, most likely theyll just lift Ferdinand to the throne...
 
That... actually, now that you say it there might be a point to that. Youre awesome like that ;) (Heh, anybody who manages to balance Germanophilia and Polophilia off has some serious talent :p )

:eek:

Really, it just comes of being a hopeless romantic. I can't know very much a nation and not become fascinated by them, and when you're fascinated by them you want them to do well. And of course I'm British, so I exist in splendid isolation! :D It does have problems, though. In the proto-TL taking shape in scribbles right now, the issue of Transylvania causes me physical pain.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Plenty of nations have proved remarkably enduring.

And many others were absorbed.

They were extremely Germanised OTL. The thing about industrial revolutions is that they dramatically expand and change the educated and ruling classes.

And typically provide a very strong push for cultural unification.

Why? The whole point was the the factories and schools were swamped with Slavs.

Then the industrializing Empire shall simply set up a decent system of public schools and the Slav children shall be assimilated within a couple generations.

And you haven't really provided any convincing argument why the intellectual side won't happen.

And why the Bohemian intellectual elites of an Empire that has been united for a half millennium under Germanic-Italian cultural hegemony shall develop an irresistible nationalistic fascination for quaint peasant dialects ?

As Susano says, the Czechs nation has strong and deep roots.

Just like Old Egyptian and Aramaic. Got any luck finding people speaking it nowadays ?

...God, that's offensive. I have nothing against Germanisation, but to say it's some kind of force of nature and that exceptions to it resulting in fascinating and civilised peoples are "unsightly" is just... urgh...

If it may give you a different perspective on my PoV, I find deeply unsightly that the Romans didn't conquer Germania and kept their Empire together, so bringing Latinization and enduring political-cultural unity to all of Europe west of the steppes. That said, the less languages are around to create rallying points for nationalist Balkanization misery in Europe and the world, the better, regardless of whether the political and cultural unification is accomplished by the Romans, the Franks, the French, the Germans, the Spanish, or whomever.

Am I the only person here who actually likes and admires every people of central Europe for their own merits?

Liking the people is way different from rooting for Balkanization. Personally I rather prefer the way that Cantonese and Pekingese, or Texans and Californians, can, or the Romans could, express meaningful cultural differences while being able to share the same greater cultural and political unity, and root for TLs where that kind of difference in unity is far more widespread throughout the world, espeically in my preferred continent.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Seriously, can't we all just get along?

Sure, but peoples get along better if they can speak the same language.

Give me and actual reason why the Hohenstaufen will conquer western Poland.

Hmm, because picking up the pieces of Poland and resettling it after the passage of the Mongols may easily prove a much simpler way of post-unification expansion than conquering France ?

Seriously, are you trying to give Germanophilia a bad name?

Actually, European imperial unification. Germanophilia is but a means to that end, but I can root the same way for the Romans, Charlemagne, or Napoleon in the appropriate TL. About the Present PoD, I root for the Hohenstaufen since it allows to wipe out unsightly Germany, Benelux, Switzerland, Austria, Czechia, Slovenia, Italy and substitute them with a nice Germanic-Romance Imperial blob headed for enduring internal peace and progress. Not yet the near-complete pre-modern European unification I fancy, the way the victory of the Romans or the Carolingians would have been, but definite progress in the right direction.
 
And many others were absorbed.

True(I live in a country where a language was obliterated by industrialisation rather than revived), but it was hardly a lottery. There were factors. The Czechs have a lot of factors in their favour, such as a historical tradition and a clearly-defined kingdom.

And typically provide a very strong push for cultural unification.

But, specifically, in Czechia, it did the reverse. There are other exceptions.

Then the industrializing Empire shall simply set up a decent system of public schools and the Slav children shall be assimilated within a couple generations.

People have a remarkable tendency to not do this. The Greek clergy in the pre-revolt days talked confidently about Bulgarians and Serbs being gone soon. And the ever-resilient Slovaks were latterly under a pretty serious Magyarisation program. The fact is, moher tongue is called mother tongue and not teacher tongue for a reason. Our first language and the one we identify with is the one we learn from our families, which gives people a remarkable continuity.

And why the Bohemian intellectual elites of an Empire that has been united for a half millennium under Germanic-Italian cultural hegemony shall develop an irresistible nationalistic fascination for quaint peasant dialects ?

That's not how it works. An industrial revolution creates a new intellectual elite from the people who have bettered their social status and are able to send their children to a proper education, and this new elite can actively promote their language. A classis example is the Ukrainians, who gained awareness of themselves as distinct within (not from: this is a bit of apet issue with me) Russia at pretty much exactly the time a univesity was founded in Kiev with th explicit purpose of introducing an intellectual elite to Ukraine that wasn't Polish.

Also, "quaint peasant dialects"? Given this, your glee at "annoying Slavophiles", and the conspicuous absense of Russia from your list of prominent European nations rather leads me to feel that whatever nationalist agendas you may or may not have, you have some sort of problem with Slavs.

Just like Old Egyptian and Aramaic. Got any luck finding people speaking it nowadays ?

On the other side of the coin, Slovak (seriously, though, Slovak!), a language without deep and strong roots of tradition, weathered the centuries.

If it may give you a different perspective on my PoV, I find deeply unsightly that the Romans didn't conquer Germania and kept their Empire together, so bringing Latinization and enduring political-cultural unity to all of Europe west of the steppes. That said, the less languages are around to create rallying points for nationalist Balkanization misery in Europe and the world, the better, regardless of whether the political and cultural unification is accomplished by the Romans, the Franks, the French, the Germans, the Spanish, or whomever.

I should probably have guessed from the name. :rolleyes:

I think the hopeless romantic who is a -phile for everybody and the calculating nations-suck bloke who is a -phile for the top-dog are just going to hvae to disagree. I like languages, cultures, and traditions purely on their own merits, you don't.

Liking the people is way different from rooting for Balkanization. Personally I rather prefer the way that Cantonese and Pekingese, or Texans and Californians, can, or the Romans could, express meaningful cultural differences while being able to share the same greater cultural and political unity, and root for TLs where that kind of difference in unity is far more widespread throughout the world, espeically in my preferred continent.

That doesn't mean who you have to go around referring to Czech as a "quaint peasent dialect". In you're determination to Destroy the Slavs, you're not really talking about Texans and Californians so much as modern Americans everywhere and the native peoples everywhere.
 
Sure, but peoples get along better if they can speak the same language.

As I say, I like languages. You don'e like languages. I say tomato, you say tomayto, let's call the whole thing off.

Hmm, because picking up the pieces of Poland and resettling it after the passage of the Mongols may easily prove a much simpler way of post-unification expansion than conquering France ?

I wasn't aware that everybody was rabidly expansionist in the Middle Ages.

Actually, European imperial unification. Germanophilia is but a means to that end, but I can root the same way for the Romans, Charlemagne, or Napoleon in the appropriate TL. About the Present PoD, I root for the Hohenstaufen since it allows to wipe out unsightly Germany, Benelux, Switzerland, Austria, Czechia, Slovenia, Italy and substitute them with a nice Germanic-Romance Imperial blob headed for enduring internal peace and progress. Not yet the near-complete pre-modern European unification I fancy, the way the victory of the Romans or the Carolingians would have been, but definite progress in the right direction.

Yeah, I like nations and dislike Eurofederationism. We're just going to have to disagree. I still rather think, however, that is this was you're only concern you wouldn't consider "Slavophilia" an insulting term.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I still rather think, however, that is this was you're only concern you wouldn't consider "Slavophilia" an insulting term.

I don't. From my PoV, European unification accomplished by pre-modern Russia is just as good as the one done by other top dogs (not the Mongols, they would have wrecked Europe just as bad as they did the Muslim world). It's just that I have rather more trouble identifying easy PoDs to accomplish the uber-Russia scenario than for the other usual culprits like the Romans, the French, or the Germans.
 
I don't. From my PoV, European unification accomplished by pre-modern Russia is just as good as the one done by other top dogs (not the Mongols, they would have wrecked Europe just as bad as they did the Muslim world). It's just that I have rather more trouble identifying easy PoDs to accomplish the uber-Russia scenario than for the other usual culprits like the Romans, the French, or the Germans.

Well, I disagree with you, but it's not actually offensive. "Quaint peasent dialect" was just untrue, however.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I wasn't aware that everybody was rabidly expansionist in the Middle Ages.

Pretty much any king and noble was, if they got half a chance, it's just that typically ambitions outstepped the means. That was the obvious result of putting an hereditary warrior elite in charge.
 
If the Honenstaufen unification works, there shall never be a Kingdom of Bohemia.

Czech civilisation was older than the Kingdom and there's no need to be condescending about anyone. Besides, as I said nobody went in for deliberate cultural assimilation in the Middle Ages so I see no reason why much of Bohemian culture shouldn't happen anyway.
 
Note that the important question here is not whether there had been a sentiment of national pride/unity/whatever prior to 1813 - scholars disagreee on that btw - but to what extent this was somehow relevant in people's lives.

Most certainly a Bavarian had a notion that he was German and that a Prussian was also German. But in the pre-1800s, there was no nationalism, ergo no reason why this fact should have been important.

To give you an example: How many of you feel connected to a fellow Christian living in Africa just because he is Christian?
 
Most certainly a Bavarian had a notion that he was German and that a Prussian was also German. But in the pre-1800s, there was no nationalism, ergo no reason why this fact should have been important.

For an unjust excommunication is better than ten just absolutions, and an unjust absolution is worse than ten just excommunications. Therefore let us rouse ourselves, fellow-Germans, and fear God more than man, that we be not answerable for all the poor souls that are so miserably lost through the wicked, devilish government of the Romanists, and that the dominion of the devil should not grow day by day, if indeed this hellish government can grow any worse, which, for my part, I can neither conceive nor believe.

Now that we have got well into our game, let us pause a while and show that the Germans are not such fools as not to perceive or understand this Romish trickery.

Even if it were proposed to collect any such treasure for use against the Turks, we should be wise in future, and remember that the German nation is more fitted to take charge of it than the Pope, seeing that the German nation by itself is able to provide men enough, if the money is

From Luther's Address to the German Nobility.
 
And - of course - quotes from a single man speak for an entire people...

If the man's followers end up as a very important religion in said country, it suggests that at least somebody was listening.

In any case you said that there was "no nationalism". Even if Luther was the only nationalist in the whole history of anything until Friedrich Staps leapt out of nowhere (and doesn't that sound absurdly unlikely, German-nationality deniers? Shouldn't events have causes?), those quotes still contradict you if you want to be picky.
 
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Best point to do it securely and surely is start at the source: Henry the Fowler and his immediate successors. Keep the Saxon line on the German throne, and have Otto not go on his expensive and fruitless adventures in Italy or receive the Imperial title. Have them keep the Bohemians under control, and secure the borders of the formative Kingdom of the Germans. If all goes well, the German-ness of the state won't be usurped by a universalist, Roman sentiment.

Eventually, the centralisation of power (helped greatly if the King manages to maintain investiture rights) and continuing German nature of the kingdom would result in German national sentiment occurring centuries earlier as a potent force.
 
I gotta say that no matter how prevalent and secure the czech culture of today is, if there was never a kingdom of Bohemia would a czech consider himself to be regionally a Czech, and nationally a german.
 
I gotta say that no matter how prevalent and secure the czech culture of today is, if there was never a kingdom of Bohemia would a czech consider himself to be regionally a Czech, and nationally a german.

Well, that depends on your PoD, obviously. It's wholly possible that they could end up as part of Germany politically and in sentiment. In fact, you could manage this with a much later PoD. I was just decrying what I see as a lack of interest in, even contempt for, the Czech language and culture and a habit of offhandly declaring it swallowed by Germandom (which is not at all necessary for the Czechs to be "German in sentiment").
 

Susano

Banned
Actually that would be kinda difficult IMO. Because of the common lingual conflicts, I would say the Germans were pretty much "the Other" for the Czech national identity to form against. One would have to find a way to get rid of those conflicts very early...

And really, Czech language is cool at least in one regard: It cant be that the British Islands have the only language without vowels :D

As for Transylvania, independance, of course! This would then probably cause physical pain for Eurofed, but omelettes and eggs :D
 
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