Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
It doesn't matter whether the Hapsburgs, France, or parties unknown do it. How can the Dutch Republic be thoroughly defeated and occupied in the Thirty Years War?
France)It doesn't matter whether the Hapsburgs, France, or parties unknown do it. How can the Dutch Republic be thoroughly defeated and occupied in the Thirty Years War?
I can only see the Spanish doing it in the early 1620s. After the 12 Years Truce had ended in 1621, they had some initial successes, but after Frederick Henry became Stadtholder, the tide turned and Spanish involvement in Germany meant resources in the Lowlands only decreased. Have Spinola be more succesful after taking Breda and march onto Holland and you have a chance.France)
The Swedes achieve a major victory against Austria, thus defeat seems inevitable. The Spanish thus decide to make peace with Sweden, in exchange for keeping the entire Netherlands, they withdraw from the war. The French, fearing the maintenance of Spanish power in the Lowlands, and growing Swedish power, ally with Austria, and are promised the Lowlands including the Dutch Republic, as well as a division of Spain's Italian territories with the Austrian Hapsburgs.
Hapsburgs)
Simple. The Catholic alliance is victorious and and retakes the Republic.
Sweden)The Swedes are victorious, as Gustavus survives, and in the peace treaty, the Swedes are either establish their King as Holy Roman Empire, or create Protestant Empire in the north. The peace treaty assumes the Dutch will be a part of the (formal) empire, but the Dutch decline when made aware of that clause. Thus the Swedes invade to force them into the said empire.
1)I said Hapsburgs..... with the combined might of the Hapsburgs and the Catholic alliance, would it be so implausible?1)I can only see the Spanish doing it in the early 1620s. After the 12 Years Truce had ended in 1621, they had some initial successes, but after Frederick Henry became Stadtholder, the tide turned and Spanish involvement in Germany meant resources in the Lowlands only decreased. Have Spinola be more succesful after taking Breda and march onto Holland and you have a chance.
2)If the French go for the Lowlands, Spain (which occupies the South) will ally with the Republic to kick them out. The French army at this time was also not as good yet as it would be some decades later. Their involvement in the Thirty Years War was initially limited to funding any enemy of the Habsburgs.
3)Sweden is just ASB.
If they try something, the Dutch fleet sails into the Baltic to kick Swedish ass. Say goodby to any Swedish Baltic commerce and with it funding for their army.
For all the vaunted GIIA and his army, the Dutch will have Maurice of Nassau and Frederick Henry as commanders, and a bigger and probably better army. It was certainly better funded.
The best chance would be with a Spanish attack of Spinola from the south with some major Imperial offensive from the east. Essentially the same procedure the French tried and almost succeeded in during 1672-1673
In that case, I agree. My mistake, I should read better.1)I said Hapsburgs..... with the combined might of the Hapsburgs and the Catholic alliance, would it be so implausible?
They would probably see it as switching from their own side to still their own side. At this time religion was more an excuse to pursue dynastic interests.2)Yes, this was assumed, but that doesn't mean the Spanish-Dutch would succeed. Spanish morale would likely be low, seeing as they had switched from the side of the Catholics to that of the Protestants.
Maybe not immediately. But the North German states only drag the quality down. Also, the logistic are horrible for an attack from the east in this time. Most of the Dutch border regions are marshes with the few roads protected by fortresses. And then the Swedes have to take Groningen, which going by the siege in 1672, was a formidable fortress.3)Bigger army? Larger then the combined forces of Sweden and North Germany?
It would be so improbable it would be close to impossibleA victory would be totally implausible then for the Swedes?
That would resemble the 1672 scenario, with Sweden (and Northern Germany) taking the place of England, Munster and Cologne and the French as they were.Perhaps in alliance with the French(a division of the Dutch republic with those territories below the Rhine going to France may be plausible?