AH Challenge: decisive German victory at Jutland

I thought the Germans already had a lot of luck during the battle. The Royal Navy must have broken a lot of mirrors before the battle, either that or Admirals Jellicoes black cat was drowned.
The Germans did have a lot of luck but except for the encounter with the Danish Merchant, which started the battle further South than would have occurred otherwise, the luck only started after my 18:00 POD. Beatty's signalling and gunnery was so consistently awful that it cannot be attributed to luck (unless having an incompetent commander of the British battlecruisers is added to the German luck).
I don't think that a truly decisive victory is very plausible, barring utter ineptitude on the part of the Grand Fleet. The british simply outnumber the germans by too much, can probably replace their losses far more rapidly than the germans, and will cut off the engagement if it seems that the High Seas fleet has an opportunity to anaihailate them.
Fully agree! The British had Queen Elizabeth, Emperor of India and Dreadnought at home and were about to receive three more R class battleships and two battlecruisers. If loses were really heavy, they could ask the French to send some of their 7 dreadnoughts. The most significant immediate military effect might be a loss of superiority in battlecruisers which would allow more German raids, for example against convoys to Norway.

However, a German victory would have likely consequences for Germany, Britain and other countries.

In Germany, there would be a strong temptation to try again. The German Navy would want its incomplete battleships and battlecruisers built as quickly as possible, which would delay U-boat building (and my battle would also favour destroyer building). They might not want war with America because the addition of an American squadron would restore their enemies' overwhelming superiority (they should not have wanted American involvement OTL but here the problems start quicker). If Scheer was not present for the victory (my suggestion), a voice in favour of U-boat warfare might be removed. I suspect that Hipper was politically more cautious (surprisingly sane for an admiral).

Looking to other powers, Romania might perhaps be influenced to avoid joining the war in 1916.

Looking to Britain, one consequence would be more effort on warship building (especially if U-boat warfare is slowed). Even if they survived, Jellicoe and Beatty would not have continued in command as no commision of enquiry could ignore Beatty's incompetence and Jellicoe would be blamed for his subordinates' errors. That has significant consequences postwar. For example, Jellicoe favoured fortifying Singapore and does not seem to have trusted the Japanese. A really interesting what if would have Pakenham rising to a more influencial position as he had close relations with the IJN (I hope to write that TL separately). If Britain is short of battlecruisers after Jutland, perhaps the diplomats will be sent to make concessions to Japan on China in return for the Kongos coming to the North Sea?
 
A night engagement would seem like the best chance to deliver a crushing defeat on the RN. Anything less than the loss of an additional 10 capital ships is probably insufficient to qualify as an decisive victory given the RN numerical superiority and superior build capacity. Eventually the RN would be able to reestablish supremacy but should Germany get a year or two blockade free you probably see German victory by 1918.
 
As you all know, in 1916 the Battle of Jutland took place and the High Seas Fleet clashed with the British Grand Fleet, part of the Royal Navy, in the last battleship to battleship battle ever. The outcome of the battle was indecisive as neither had inflicted a crippling blow on the other although the HSF never went out for a big battle again. Britain maintained dominance at sea while Germany kept its fleet as a constant threat but failed to destroy a significant portion of the RN.

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to get Germany to gain a decisive victory at Jutland (and discuss the consequences for the rest of the war).

Go!;)


This was not the last battleship vs battleship encounter. Ever heard of KMS Bismark and HMS Prince of Whales. The last time was in 44 between Americans and Japanese
 

nbcman

Donor
Yes but not before the yellow journalists get the Americans all riled up at the "Yellow Peril" and Britain who got the Japanese involved in the first place. Remember, Hearst was responsible for the Spanish-American war.
Besides Britain can't let the Japanese loose. Then who'd protect the ANZAC troopships? Because Britain sure wasn't going to loose the western front or let the High Seas Fleet break the blockade. the Japanese were vital to Britain in WW1. if the IJN can't do it's job, Britain will lose the war. Defeat by Catch-22?

In the unlikely event that the Americans did go to war with the Japanese, the British would stay out of the US-Japanese war (or Britain would put pressure on the US and Japan to stop the war before the war even began). The Japanese were not vital in WWI to allied success nor were they necessary to guard ANZAC troop ships after the intial German raiders were dealt with.
 
I've had an idea about this that might be ASB. In it the Japanese accidentally draw the US into ww1 in 1914 on the side of the central powers (A halucinating spotter + the "Yellow Peril"). So that it forces the UK to split the Home fleet in two or three parts (so as to deal with the USN and fill in for the Japanese.) Thus in TTL's Jutland, Germany has fairer odds of victory, so no real chance of an ambush / resulting panic thus possible German decisive Victory at ATL-Jutland. Now, what are they going to do with it?

In OTL the US had 10 Dreadnoughts in service in 1914 ( South Carolina, Michigan, Delaware, North Dakota, Florida, Utah, Wyoming, Arkansas, New York and Texas)+ 2 under construction for Argentina (Rivadavia & Moreno). Japan had Two Settsu class semi-dreadnoughts, two Kongo-class Battlecruisers, two Tsukuba-class and two Ibuki-class. Kongo and Hiei are the only Japanese capital ships that pose a threat to the USN.

From what I've got in my head so far TTL would include Miniguns (as AA weapons, cheaper & faster to refit Gatling guns with electric motors than build a new design), Von Lettow with The Marines. Australia, Ireland and New Zealand fighting Civil Wars, and a new Boer War. It's a Britscrew, cranked up to 11! While being kind of plausible.
I Think The Best Way to Achieve a Divided Home Fleet of this Nature, would be for Italy to Join The Central Powers at The Start of The War ...

With a Home Port at Naples, and The Intact Goeben Squadron, Expect The German Mediterranean Fleet to Keep The British Off-Balance ...

As Long as their Movements can be Properly Coordinated, Expect a Double Envelopment Directed at Either The Channel, or at Scapa Flow, itself!

:eek:
 
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Rethinking the whole challenge what I now believe to be necessary is the HSF has to actually be willing to engage the GF. Sure destroy the BC's first but don't run for home once you hear the GF is coming. The Germans should have operated under the assumption that their codes had been cracked. If the Germans can leave port without the RN knowing ahead of time the Germans can probably annihilate the 2nd BC squadron then engage the GF(hopefully having been alerted as to its movements by a scouting U-boat)in a night engagement.
 
I've always been curious if the Germans could have used U-Boats effectively during the battle. Would it be possible for U-boat swarms to knock off a fair portion of the Grand Fleet with torpedos before the GF engages the HSF? Even if the U-Boats don't do that much damage could the torpedo attacks scatter enough of the GF to let the HSF defeat the Brits in detail? I'm not enough of a WW1 submarine expert to know if this is feasible, and it seems like it would've been difficult to coordinate, but it also seems like it could be pretty decisive.
 
U-boats were supposed to be scouting for the HSF but completely failed in that regard as the GF was able to slip by undetected. I don't think submarine warfare had advanced enough for U-boats to have participate effectively at Jutland.
 
It would have been sheer luck for a submarine to get into a firing position against a dreadnought travelling at speed, particularlly during a fleet actions as submarines simply weren't advanced or fast enough to manuver between opposing battlelines (same more or less applied in World War 2, despite all the advances; the few instances of submarines successfully engaging task forces were either luck, involved confined waters, or were the results of intercepts set up by intelligence). Historically, at Jutland, German U-Boats did manage to attack two crippled British dreadnoughts that had left the battleline & were returning to base (Warspite & Marlborough) but missed both times. Even if both those attacks had been successful in that they resulted in fatal torpedo hits to the battleships, it still wouldn't have really changed the stragegic equation.

Even with World War 2 submarines, it probably wouldn't have been possible to set up a submarine ambush big enough and successful enough to cut the GF down to a size the HSF could manage.
 
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