AH Challenge: Commie India

[BurningWickerman]

Earliest POD: Jan 1. 1946

Challenge: India must be an independent communist power. It doesn't have to be independent from the start just independent at some point. Chinese-style economic reforms are allowed.

Bonus points: 3 Feuding Communist powers, an Indian Industrial Revolution

 

[Flocculencio]

The south Indian State of Kerala does actually have the world's only freely-elected Communist government. They win about every other election- the populace likes to keep the Communists and the Congress Party on their toes.

Have this Communist Party, with their ethos of winning at the elections rather than seizing power, gain importance in other Indian states throughout the '60's and maybe by the early '70's, India might elect a Communist government.

The trouble with a revolution is that India is nowhere near united enough for the idea of common solidarity to take effect. It's like trying to launch a communist revolution throughout Europe. Plus, India is and has been a creaky but functioning democracy except for that unfortunate period in the late-70's. Indians wouldn't look too kindly on a totalitarian government. Thus, the best way to get a Communist India is to have them win at the polls like everyone else.

 

[Tyr]

The communists in India are good rulers, Kerala has very good literacy levels and what have you compared to the rest of the country. It's not that much of a stretch to have them become the ruling party.

 

[Flocculencio]

The communists in India are good rulers, Kerala has very good literacy levels and what have you compared to the rest of the country. It's not that much of a stretch to have them become the ruling party.

Kerala has very good literacy levels even compared to some parts of the West- over 90%. Thats about the same as in the US IIRC.

And as I said, the thing about Communism in Kerala is that the electoral base is far too politically aware to actually let them try anything totalitarian even if they wanted to. The Communists get kept on their toes by the fact that if the people don't like what they're doing they throw support to the Congress party.

India would probably be a great place to actually have a working communist regime, albeit one which forms with strong social democratic influence and ditches the connections to the USSR- a politically aware and interested populace, a strong democratic tradition and a strong opposition. We could see it as a third communist branch giving us Marxist-Leninism, Maoism and the Indian Left Front (as the Indian Left Wing coalition was called OTL).

Of course the US would freak out but I don't know if, even in the 60's they'd consider taking on India. They did try to intervene in Vietnam but India just seems to damn big. Perhaps after their initial hysteria they realise that India's probably a good ally to have on their side- a bit too lefty but, hey, so's Britain

I suppose they could try to get the Pakistanis to cause trouble but the Pakistanis aren't going to be that much of a problem- India outweighs them considerably.

The other problem is that the Chinese and the Soviets are going to hate this new Indian form of communism like poison, especially if the Indian Left are open to elements of capitalism. Once again we segue to my favourite ATL- India does in the 70's what OTL China did in the '90's and OTL India is just starting to do.

however there's nothing much the Soviets or Chinese can do. The Chinese can skirmish with the Indians in the Himalayas as they always do but besides that, nothing practical.

 

[Tyr]

Who says communism has to be totalitarian?

 

[MarkA]

US literacy levels at over 90%??? Is this from the CIA website or something?

Besides basic literacy levels, which in the United States is way below 90%, there is something called competency standards. In this area the USA is very low indeed. When questioned on basic standards in subjects like geography and events outside the borders of their country, US school children score extremly badly compared to other countries.

 

[Flocculencio]

Who says communism has to be totalitarian?

Oh no one- when you try putting communist ideals into practice in a democratic society you get social democracy at various levels of strength.

MarkA: I can't remember where I got the figures from. I just did a search for
US literacy rates and picked up something.

 

[Tyr]

Surely the US has literacy over 90% even taking into account all those Mexicans (most of whom can read Spanish). We have 99% (with 1% being unavoidable what with disabled people and all).

I think communism could work through democracy if they consistantly win election after election and remain in power for a while.

 

[Wozza]

Who says communism has to be totalitarian?

Well, that is sort of the point, if you centrally plan the economy you centrally plan numerous other aspects of people's lives.
I would agree if you said who said it had to be a dictatorship, or believe in complete central planning. But then we have surely reached the point of in practice being social democrats?

 

[Ivan Druzhkov]

however there's nothing much the Soviets or Chinese can do. The Chinese can skirmish with the Indians in the Himalayas as they always do but besides that, nothing practical.

The Chinese could throw money and tanks at Pakistan and say "Go nuts". However, I don't think that'll have any outcome different from the other 2-3 wars India and Pakistan have fought with each other.

 

[Straha]

easy: have Kerala's communist party psread to the rest of india. There you've got a commie india. A commie india in a 3 way cold war with a libertarian US and a Nazi Germany/Fascist russia would be interesting.

 

[Flocculencio]

The Chinese could throw money and tanks at Pakistan and say "Go nuts". However, I don't think that'll have any outcome different from the other 2-3 wars India and Pakistan have fought with each other.

Trouble here is that if Pakistan accepts aid from China, their alliance with the US (and they did try to stay cosy with the West during the Cold War) is going to go the way of the dinosaur. In any case hardware wasn't their problem- Pakistani hardware was almost always better than it's Indian equivalent, up until recent times anyway. The problem here is that whatever Pakistan throws at India, India can always send a massive wave of armour rumbling straight at Lahore in the style of the Russian Front of WW2.

Straha: Glad to see you actually read the rest of the post...

 

[Straha]

Trouble here is that if Pakistan accepts aid from China, their alliance with the US (and they did try to stay cosy with the West during the Cold War) is going to go the way of the dinosaur. In any case hardware wasn't their problem- Pakistani hardware was almost always better than it's Indian equivalent, up until recent times anyway. The problem here is that whatever Pakistan throws at India, India can always send a massive wave of armour rumbling straight at Lahore in the style of the Russian Front of WW2.

Straha: Glad to see you actually read the rest of the post...

Yep. The idea of a freely elected Communist naiton seemed interesting... if weird.

 

[Wendell]

Indira Gandhi was not too terribly far of from this idea when she made India more (titularly) Socialistic in the 1970's.

 

[Flocculencio]

Indira Gandhi was not too terribly far of from this idea when she made India more (titularly) Socialistic in the 1970's.

The trouble here is that Indira Gandhi was also a power-mad despot responsible for the only period in the history of independent India when the ideals of democracy were tossed on the garbage heap.

At least this way we get a brand of communism that has proven that it can work within the framework of democracy.

 

[Wendell]

The trouble here is that Indira Gandhi was also a power-mad despot responsible for the only period in the history of independent India when the ideals of democracy were tossed on the garbage heap.

At least this way we get a brand of communism that has proven that it can work within the framework of democracy.

You would not get Communism, you might get "Democratic Socialism," but not Communism.

 

[Flocculencio]

You would not get Communism, you might get "Democratic Socialism," but not Communism.

Yes but you don't get Communism with either the USSR or Red China either. "Communism" as Marx set it out is a pipe dream- by "communist" I think all of us in this thread mean some form of socialist influence in systems ranging from Social Democracy to an totalitarian dictatorship.

The Kerala-style communists (i.e. socialists, except these guys spout a bit more communist rhetoric than European style social democrats do) provide a way for us to get a more socialist India identifying itself as communist without having it slip into a totalitarian dictatorship with a violent revolution.

 

[Matt]

US literacy levels at over 90%??? Is this from the CIA website or something?

Besides basic literacy levels, which in the United States is way below 90%, there is something called competency standards. In this area the USA is very low indeed. When questioned on basic standards in subjects like geography and events outside the borders of their country, US school children score extremly badly compared to other countries.

What the hell does this uncalled for knock at the United States have anything to do with the topic on hand, besides flamebait?

 

[Ian the Admin]

US literacy levels at over 90%??? Is this from the CIA website or something?

Besides basic literacy levels, which in the United States is way below 90%, there is something called competency standards. In this area the USA is very low indeed. When questioned on basic standards in subjects like geography and events outside the borders of their country, US school children score extremly badly compared to other countries.

MBarry is right, this is totally off-topic flamebait. Cut it out.

 

[Doctor What]

Yep. The idea of a freely elected Communist naiton seemed interesting... if weird.

Allende in Chile was a fervent Marxist. His party. while technically Socialist, was just a hop and skip away from communist. And he got in through a (narrow) legitimate election win. So I don't find it that weird.

Maybe have the communist guys in the south do a seemingly good job that they become popular in the rest of the nation? Maybe have some kind of 'Indian castro' show up to galvanize the lower class?