AH Challenge: Christian Warrior Monks

Hendryk

Banned
EXACTLY!
why didin't any one see it earlier?
I'm also a practicing Ki-Aikidoka, and Aikido philosophy and combat fit well with christian idealology.
Jo and bokken arts get turned into Quarterstaff or flail arts.

Now how could we get an aikido-like martial art style in Europe when Aikido was created by O-sensei in the 1950s?
There's one problem, though: aikido and related styles of martial arts largely owe their existence to the concept of qi/ki 氣, which has no equivalent in Christian thought. In fact I'd argue that Christian dogma makes the adoption of a concept of "lifeforce" problematic. There's also no tradition in Christianity of using physical training as a method of spiritual self-improvement; if anything, spiritual growth was seen as resulting from physical mortification. So while you might end up with Christian combat techniques, those won't truly amount to a martial art in the Asian sense of the term.
 
There's one problem, though: aikido and related styles of martial arts largely owe their existence to the concept of qi/ki 氣, which has no equivalent in Christian thought. In fact I'd argue that Christian dogma makes the adoption of a concept of "lifeforce" problematic. There's also no tradition in Christianity of using physical training as a method of spiritual self-improvement; if anything, spiritual growth was seen as resulting from physical mortification. So while you might end up with Christian combat techniques, those won't truly amount to a martial art in the Asian sense of the term.

Ki, Ki, KI, Ki.
Never enough, not focused enough, and no way to accuretly discribe it in any European Language.....

Well they could, I dunno, maybe say Ki is like.....the inner strenght God gives all his creations, but only the trained warrior monks can easily and regularly access?
(I know that sounds stupid, bu that's all i can think of.)
 
Kung Fu was invented by an indian buddhist monk who discovered that extensive meditation harms the cardiovaskular system.
That the monks also learn to push someone kidneys out of the ear by a kick was in first place just a simple bonus. Later it become more important.

The Bodhidharma/Kung Fu myth has been exploded long ago. (Even his existance is disputed.) The [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Asian martial arts well predate Buddhism. The arts taught at Shaolin have their origins in a combination of wrestling[/SIZE][/FONT], which was a popular pastime, and skills learned from retired soldiers taking refuge.

With due respect, if you look at traditional asian marital arts, the last thing you want is to get into a Grapple, leaves you open to extra attackers, and that's not something you want.....
hm....... boxing might be usefull though.....

I don't see whe not - it's quite close to the early Chinese martial arts. http://www.kuoshu.co.uk/History - SJ.htm

There's one problem, though: aikido and related styles of martial arts largely owe their existence to the concept of qi/ki 氣, which has no equivalent in Christian thought. In fact I'd argue that Christian dogma makes the adoption of a concept of "lifeforce" problematic. There's also no tradition in Christianity of using physical training as a method of spiritual self-improvement; if anything, spiritual growth was seen as resulting from physical mortification. So while you might end up with Christian combat techniques, those won't truly amount to a martial art in the Asian sense of the term.

I'm going to disagree with the specifics there, but agree with your general conclusion. Rather than specifically Qi/Ki, there's no yoga like tradition in the west. Most plausable origin I can come up with for a western "Asian" martial art would be a transmission of some sort of yoga via the Greek-Indian connection. Combine that with Pankratium, and you'll get
something that looks a lot like an Asian martial art. Too bad it'd have to take place well before the window given...
 
When I mentioned field implements being used for armed martial arts, I was thinking about the Okinawan family if armed combat. IIRC, everyday instruments of work were adapted to martial use because the Japanese lords of the island had forbidden the use of weapons under pain of death.
Why shouldn't there be the same development in Europe?

As for the argument of there being no tradition in Western culture of the concept of inner strength, well, this is an alternate history site, dammit. Just have some obscure Christian sect or order deviate from the path of strength through bodily mortification and develop something akin to the Qi/Ki path. A gaggle of monks begin to dabble in physical training where the weather is cold and wet for most of the year in order to keep warm - Scotland, Ireland etc.

During a (Viking) raid, the monks discover that those more physically fit and adept at swinging shepherds' stafs, flails and whatnot, or even their hands and feet fare better than the emaciated followers of ascetic doctrines. "Mens sana in corpore sano" springs to mind.
Along the way they discover that strenuous exercise beyond working in the fields and gardens of the monastery actually enhances their mental prowess (a medical fact) and seems to keep them healthy. Prayer routines are adapted for use while going through "weapon dances" (a.k.a. Kata in Japanese martial arts). This becomes equivalent to mantras and/or centering techniques. I am pretty sure there are numerous passages even in the New Testament which would serve this purpose admirably.

A trickle-down effect starts over time as commoners and nobles alike witness the monks' prowess and start to emulate them or even seek tutelage and training. Washed-out secular warriors who join monasteries to find some peace of mind contribute to the ever-growing and evolving arsenal of armed and unarmed monastic combat arts...well you get the picture. As for some Aikido-like form of unarmed combat being most likely to be developed, I concur whole-heartedly.

Another thought springs to mind. A Christian version of the Old Man of the Mountain and his Assassin sect. A somewhat twisted monastic order (of nuns, maybe? :cool::D) seeking to proactively annihilate the enemies of Christendom...scary but fascinating.

Just my 2 Euro-Cents' worth :)
 

Hendryk

Banned
As for the argument of there being no tradition in Western culture of the concept of inner strength, well, this is an alternate history site, dammit. Just have some obscure Christian sect or order deviate from the path of strength through bodily mortification and develop something akin to the Qi/Ki path. A gaggle of monks begin to dabble in physical training where the weather is cold and wet for most of the year in order to keep warm - Scotland, Ireland etc.
I don't have any particular problem with the idea of some Christian religious order developing a specific combat method--and I agree that it would make sense to focus on farming implements and other everyday tools as possible weapons, if the goal is to train commoners--but developing an analog to the concept of qi would require more than just someone coming up with the idea one sunny day. It's a cultural meme, which Asia had and not Europe; these things don't just pop up like that.

You might get there with a much earlier POD, and the Hellenistic philosophers finding practical applications to the concept of pneuma in light of Indian practices, perhaps brought over by Buddhist missionaries. But such a development may well end up butterflying away the rise of Christianity as we know it.
 
Another thought springs to mind. A Christian version of the Old Man of the Mountain and his Assassin sect. A somewhat twisted monastic order (of nuns, maybe? :cool::D) seeking to proactively annihilate the enemies of Christendom...scary but fascinating.

Just my 2 Euro-Cents' worth :)

European warrior nuns.
good god, they'ld be like the Onna Bugeisha.
and sense Noble women were trained in using the Naginata (because of it's lenght, and cutting edge, it was considered to be the best weapon for women to use), the battle nuns would be trained in either the Glaive or Halbred-type weapons.
or, they'ld just use what all the Monks are using.
hm....can any one else see the possibility of a cross shaped weapon forming?
 
[C]an any one else see the possibility of a cross shaped weapon forming?

It DID form IOTL. Take a close look at the (long) swords of Christian knights / warriors. They are cruciform for precisely the reason that springs to mind.

(My real reason was to bump this thread. Damn, how I hate the Jul/New Year's season. Nothing much happens on my favorite boards :D)
 
It DID form IOTL. Take a close look at the (long) swords of Christian knights / warriors. They are cruciform for precisely the reason that springs to mind.

(My real reason was to bump this thread. Damn, how I hate the Jul/New Year's season. Nothing much happens on my favorite boards :D)

oh, forgot that.

hm......

I suddenly had pictures of Christian monks thwacking people with large, Cross-tipped walking sticks.
 

Hendryk

Banned
I suddenly had pictures of Christian monks thwacking people with large, Cross-tipped walking sticks.
That brings "Gangs of new York" to mind.

2002_gangs_of_new_york_015.jpg
 
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