AH Challenge: Christian Anatolia?

Crusader states would never make it into the 19th century.

And why's that? Anatolian Crusader States, would, I suspect, have a much greater chance of survival, especially if loosely allied in a feudal arrangement.

Your scenario is weak. ;). He asked for Christian Turks.

If I recall, AHP my good man, that was more of a bonus points thing. I dared to be extra naughty and defy the Turkish lobby of AH.com. ;)

The Byzantine Empire was never "Greek", it was "Greek speaking", in terms of government and high culture. There were lots of non-Greek speakers, and most of the population was non-Greek ethnically. There would be no problem having Turks as subjects of the empire - there already were some in OTL.

What's your point? In my humble defence, I did include a little Turkish state in there, just as a special treat for you and Keenir.
 
What's your point? In my humble defence, I did include a little Turkish state in there, just as a special treat for you and Keenir.

My point is that people get hung up on the idea of the Byzantine Empire as "Greek", when in reality it was a universalist Christian empire that contained a multitude of ethnicities, and that taking on one more is no real burden, and that this challenge is too easy. I'm not even sure a majority of Byzantines were Greek-speaking, let alone Greek ethnically (when the empire was large, say in Basil II's time).
 
My point is that people get hung up on the idea of the Byzantine Empire as "Greek", when in reality it was a universalist Christian empire that contained a multitude of ethnicities, and that taking on one more is no real burden, and that this challenge is too easy. I'm not even sure a majority of Byzantines were Greek-speaking, let alone Greek ethnically (when the empire was large, say in Basil II's time).

In Basil II's time the majority probably spoke Greek, but their ancestry would be native to where-ever they were from. The Anatolians had been assimilated and were Greek speaking Christians at this point, the lower Balkan Slavs (the ones in modern-day Greece) had also mostly been assimilated. The areas that weren't majority Greek speaking were mostly Bulgaria (Slavic and Bulgarian, naturally), Armenia (which doesn't include Cicilia since this is pre-Manzikert and so pre-Armenian migration), and Macedonia above the Axios (Slavic).

Of course, it's difficult to make generalizations about this kind of period and, in that day and age, it was perfectly possible for two villages that spoke completely different languages and had completely different cultures to exist virtually side by side, but in general that's the way it went.

So, while the Byzantine Empire wasn't a Greek Empire in the sense of a Greek nation-state, it certainly was a Hellenistic empire. In fact, while a lot of people like to think of the Byzantines as a Roman remnant, I think that's only a convenient legal fiction and it was actually the last Hellenistic state.
 
In Basil II's time the majority probably spoke Greek, but their ancestry would be native to where-ever they were from. The Anatolians had been assimilated and were Greek speaking Christians at this point, the lower Balkan Slavs (the ones in modern-day Greece) had also mostly been assimilated. The areas that weren't majority Greek speaking were mostly Bulgaria (Slavic and Bulgarian, naturally), Armenia (which doesn't include Cicilia since this is pre-Manzikert and so pre-Armenian migration), and Macedonia above the Axios (Slavic).

Of course, it's difficult to make generalizations about this kind of period and, in that day and age, it was perfectly possible for two villages that spoke completely different languages and had completely different cultures to exist virtually side by side, but in general that's the way it went.

So, while the Byzantine Empire wasn't a Greek Empire in the sense of a Greek nation-state, it certainly was a Hellenistic empire. In fact, while a lot of people like to think of the Byzantines as a Roman remnant, I think that's only a convenient legal fiction and it was actually the last Hellenistic state.

The label "Hellenistic" is anachronistic. Greek was the language of government, but the Byzantines had absolutely nothing to do with the Hellenic past and would have been scandalized to be called Hellenes, who were pagan barbarians. They were a Christian Empire with thoroughly Roman institutions and culture. Where exactly is the break between the Roman Empire an the Byzantine Empire? There isn't one - one slowly faded into the other, and the other is just a modern label for a period of the Roman Empire.

The Ionian and Black Sea coasts, much of Greece, and the Aegean Islands were Greek-speaking, but the Balkans were full of Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, and others, and Asia Minor contained a large number of non-Greek speaking peoples, including the Kurds, who have always been there (and may have been the Isaurians) in large numbers.
 

Keenir

Banned
And why's that? Anatolian Crusader States, would, I suspect, have a much greater chance of survival, especially if loosely allied in a feudal arrangement.

after two or three centuries, they wouldn't be "Crusader" any more.


(and that's even if the Mongols don't kick their butts)


If I recall, AHP my good man, that was more of a bonus points thing. I dared to be extra naughty and defy the Turkish lobby of AH.com. ;)

there's only one suitable reward for you: we'll force you to sit in a locked room with Lynzie and TMOT arguing for three hours.
;)
 
In Basil II's time the majority probably spoke Greek, but their ancestry would be native to where-ever they were from.
How do you know that ? Was there an 11th century population census conducted in the Byzantine Empire that i am not aware of? Did the Byzantine officials go house to house trough the rocky, mountainous terrain of the Balkans or Eastern Anatolia for example to ask people whether they were fluent in Greek or not? Most of the relevant persons in the empire surely must have spoken Greek, but then the vast majority that lived in the Empire during Basil II's time were illiterate peasants. Remember that we are talking about a medieval state that lacked modern communications and stretched from Italy to Iraq.

Consider this: even at the start of the 20th century a large percentage of the inhabitants of Northern Greece (below the Vardar obviously) still spoke Albanian and Vlach... both populations had lived there for the entire duration of "Byzantine" rule. Wouldn't they have adopted Greek earlier if the Byzantine Empire had been a Greek/Hellenistic Empire?
 
How do you know that ? Was there an 11th century population census conducted in the Byzantine Empire that i am not aware of? Did the Byzantine officials go house to house trough the rocky, mountainous terrain of the Balkans or Eastern Anatolia for example to ask people whether they were fluent in Greek or not? Most of the relevant persons in the empire surely must have spoken Greek, but then the vast majority that lived in the Empire during Basil II's time were illiterate peasants. Remember that we are talking about a medieval state that lacked modern communications and stretched from Italy to Iraq.

Consider this: even at the start of the 20th century a large percentage of the inhabitants of Northern Greece (below the Vardar obviously) still spoke Albanian and Vlach... both populations had lived there for the entire duration of "Byzantine" rule. Wouldn't they have adopted Greek earlier if the Byzantine Empire had been a Greek/Hellenistic Empire?

Because the vast majority of writing of any sort made in specific portions of the Empire, from commercial records to bureaucratic stores to church records in obscure villages, changes what language its written in based on what the language of the administration within the province/theme/etc is done. Most bureaucratic and official records change over first, usually a relatively short time after conquest (mostly pretty much just whenever things have calmed down enough for some kind of civilian government to get going); the central government spoke Greek, so the provincial ones better damned well do it, too. Church records change over next as areas where previously the central Orthodox Church had not been able to reach properly that might keep records in native tongue start keeping parallel records in Greek.

Commercial records turnover last, oddly enough. The slow change here probably has something to do with the extreme backwardness of most areas when (re-)conquered. Serfs have little need of commercial exchange, and the Byzantine economy had collapsed outside Anatolia and the cities by the time period we're talking about.

But what about the commons, you say? Well, all these records certainly don't paint a very complete picture, true, but they're what we have on that front. Fortunately, Byzantium was a literate culture, with very wide spread literacy for the time. A lot was written throughout the middle Byzantine period I'm talking about, and we get attestations of certain languages being spoken in certain areas less and less over time until they simply stop. While I'm sure even when written testimonials of a language's presence stop that doesn't mean there isn't still a large number of native speakers, that also doesn't mean they weren't in a minority by the point we're talking about.

So, can I say with 100% certainty when and where certain languages died or stopped being spoken in a certain area? No, of course not, but I can generally guess a time period in which usage was declining and make general estimates of when it became a minority.

The areas where the majority of the population was living tended to be Greek speaking. I'm not saying there was a general majority of Greeks everywhere, but the weight of the population of the empire was concentrated in those areas which spoke Greek. That doesn't mean that the entire empire is supposed to be completely 100% culturally 'Greek' or something like that (in fact it's kind of silly to speak of 'Greek', considering the word these people used for themselves was Roman, which included all the old populations scattered across the area from Epirus to Cappadocia that just so happened to speak a descendant language of the one spoken in the Aegean a thousand years beforehand; there were no doubt hundreds of sub-cultures within the Greek speaking language area), it just means that the weight of population spoke the medieval form of Koine Greek. They were probably a distinct minority in areas like Armenia or Bulgaria, but not in Philadelphia or Iconium.
 
One way to have Christian Turks would be to not have Islam form. When the Turks come into Persia in the 8th-9th centuries in this TL, they're likely to be a mixture of Manicheans, Buddhists, Christians (of various types) and Shamanists. An ATL equivalent of the Seljuk Empire still forms (but non-religious) and Manzikert happens on schedule. Now, the Turks that pour into Anatolia are very likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity and adopt Greco-Byzantine culture. Eventually, some Turkic state in Anatolia becomes stronger than its neighbors and gradually takes over all of Anatolia and the Balkans-except it's Orthodox Christian, its rulers speak Greek at court, and once it grabs Constantinople (which doesn't even have to be by conquest, they could just marry into the current line of Emperors), its rulers declare themselves Emperor and the Byzantine Empire gets a Turkic dynasty.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
One way to have Christian Turks would be to not have Islam form. When the Turks come into Persia in the 8th-9th centuries in this TL, they're likely to be a mixture of Manicheans, Buddhists, Christians (of various types) and Shamanists. An ATL equivalent of the Seljuk Empire still forms (but non-religious) and Manzikert happens on schedule. Now, the Turks that pour into Anatolia are very likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity and adopt Greco-Byzantine culture. Eventually, some Turkic state in Anatolia becomes stronger than its neighbors and gradually takes over all of Anatolia and the Balkans-except it's Orthodox Christian, its rulers speak Greek at court, and once it grabs Constantinople (which doesn't even have to be by conquest, they could just marry into the current line of Emperors), its rulers declare themselves Emperor and the Byzantine Empire gets a Turkic dynasty.

Or just make Islam less succesful, never really establishing a foothold outside the Arab world (less conquests, less missionary activity).
 
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