AH Challenge: Christian Anatolia?

[machine3589]

Would it be possibble to have a Christian majority in the territory of modern-day Turkey?

Unlimited POD, bonus for Christian Turks (just because it is very hard to achieve, no racism or islamophobia of any kind intended)

 

[Chengar Qordath]

A surviving Byzantium that never loses Anatolia seems like the easiest way to do it.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Greater Georgia, I always like the sound of that

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Xen]

How's this

The Islamic Armies fair poorly against the Persians and Byzantines and rather than going north they move east into Africa where the conquer Ethiopia. From there they move north into Egypt and North Africa and eventually conquer Spain like OTL.

The Turks rather than going through Persia instead go through Russia where they slowly convert to Christianity, eventually they conquer Anatolia and the Turkish Kings overthrow the Byzantine Emperor's, establishing a Turkish Byzantine Empire rather than a Greek Byzantine Empire.

The Turkish Byzantine Empire looks different going deeper into Europe and Russia than Asia and Africa, perhaps even conquering Italy. But Anatolia is Christian and Turkish

 

[Keenir]

Would it be possibble to have a Christian majority in the territory of modern-day Turkey?

yes.

the earliest would be the Galatians themselves (them being Celts)

Unlimited POD, bonus for Christian Turks (just because it is very hard to achieve,

they're around right now - entire populations of Turks just as Christian as the Khazars were Jewish and the Ottomans were Muslim.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

yes.

the earliest would be the Galatians themselves (them being Celts)

The Anatolian greeks of OTL was christian as well...

 

[Chengar Qordath]

The Anatolian greeks of OTL was christian as well...

Indeed; that's why the simplest way to get a Christian Anatolia is to just never have the existing Christians never get removed.

 

[machine3589]

yes.

the earliest would be the Galatians themselves (them being Celts)



they're around right now - entire populations of Turks just as Christian as the Khazars were Jewish and the Ottomans were Muslim.

Im not sure you understood the OP....

Its about Anatolia staying Christian, Im well aware it was Christian in earlier time periods.

And the second part is just plain confusing. Isnt over 99% of Turkey Muslim? I wasnt thinking of the Turkic peoples....

 

[Ofaloaf]

And the second part is just plain confusing. Isnt over 99% of Turkey Muslim? I wasnt thinking of the Turkic peoples....

Oh heavens no, there's plenty of Christians in Anatolian Turkey. The Orthodox Church has a fair enough presence there.

 

[Ofaloaf]

Wikipedia states that 99% of the population is muslim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_turkey
Do you have any information that contradicts this? could you send us a link?

Okay, so the Christian population is small, but it's still there, and plenty of Christians from the surrounding area come into the country to visit various churches, temples, what used to be the Hagia Sophia, etc.

Wish I had saved a few of the maps that Abdul has made in the past-- he had some good maps of the religious composition of the Ottoman Empire, and, if I recall correctly, they suggested a higher Christian population in Pontus and the Aegean coastline than currently. I think so, at least.

 

[Keenir]

The Anatolian greeks of OTL was christian as well...

the Galatians - the people St Paul wrote a letter to in the Bible? them.

Im not sure you understood the OP....

the OP asked for a Christian Anatolia, and said it could be any time period.

And the second part is just plain confusing. Isnt over 99% of Turkey Muslim? I wasnt thinking of the Turkic peoples....

there's entire tribes of Christian Turks...mostly in various parts of Russia/Siberia and Mongolia (I think).

 

[Valdemar II]

Okay, so the Christian population is small, but it's still there, and plenty of Christians from the surrounding area come into the country to visit various churches, temples, what used to be the Hagia Sophia, etc.

Wish I had saved a few of the maps that Abdul has made in the past-- he had some good maps of the religious composition of the Ottoman Empire, and, if I recall correctly, they suggested a higher Christian population in Pontus and the Aegean coastline than currently. I think so, at least.

Todays Turkey had 2,5-3 million Christians (around 12-16% of the population) in 1914, they were split around 50-50 between Greeks and Armenians. The Armenians mostly lived in easten Turkey while the Greeks lived along the coast mostly along the Aegean coast but also along the north easten coast, with both of them having a large population in Constantinoble. The Armenians mostly disappeared around 1916-1920 for reasons we won't discuss here. While the Greeks was mostly exchanged with the Muslim population in Northen Greece in the 20ties. Interesting the Greek population along the Aegean seem to be a result of 19th century migrants from the Aegean isles under Ottoman control thanks to a Greek population boom, while the Greeks in Trebizond and to lesser extent Constantinoble was descendants of the pre Muslim population.

 

[machine3589]

the OP asked for a Christian Anatolia, and said it could be any time period.

Well, I find it interesting you interpreted it like that...

But if we want to be meticulous; it still has to have a Christian majority when the modern era kicks in.

 

[Ofaloaf]

But if we want to be meticulous; it still has to have a Christian majority when the modern era kicks in.

That was what Keenir and several others were suggesting-- just avoid having the Turks invade Anatolia and that's that.

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

Just to be interesting, I'm going to suggest the Byzantines manage to expel the Turks entirely from Anatolia sometime in the reign of John II or Manuel I, but the Empire remains fairly shaky once Manuel dies. In 1207, when the Third Crusade arrives (let's say the stronger Byzantium delays the Muslim reconquest of Jerusalem to circa 1200), the Empire is unable to resist the Crusaders and collapses, to be partitioned into Crusader States.

By the year 1800, when I'm guessing the "modern era" kicks in, we have an Empire of independent states under the nominal suzeiranty of the Roman Emperor in Constantinople, who rules the Balkans and Western Anatolia directly, exerting more or less feudal pressure on his Eastern vassals as time goes by. These are as follows.

Despotate of Trebizond (Orthodox)
Despotate of Sebastea (Orthodox)
Armenian Principality of Cilicia (Monophysite)
Duchy of Iconium (Catholic)
Duchy of Caesarea (Catholic)
Despotate of Pontus (Orthodox)
Turkish Kingdom of Attaleia (Orthodox)
Kingdom of Antioch (Catholic)
Kingdom of Jerusalem (Catholic)

Well, at least there's something a bit different for you all to mull over...

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

yes. the earliest would be the Galatians themselves (them being Celts)

Despite what may be inferred by St Paul's Epistles, the earliest Christian inscriptions found in Pessinus, the then capital of the Tolistobogii tribe, and one of the few urban locations in the highlands of Galatia, were from the Fourth Century CE. Pessinus was the main site, for more than a thousand years, of the Phrygian cult of Cybele, plus the first recorded Bishop in the city, named Demetrios, was ordained in 403 CE.

Although the Celtic Galatians, while probably participating in that Cybele cult themselves, nevertheless largely retained their old religion, and even spoke their own Gallic dialect, as attested by St Jerome in the Fifth Century. So I'm personally doubtful about the passage where the local Galatians mistook Paul and Barnabas as Zeus and Hermes is accurate to the actual beliefs of these people.

And after the death of its king Amyntas in 25 BCE, Augustus fully annexed Galatia as a Roman province, it was still a rather remote and sparsely populated area, and the road system there was only enhanced between 80-120 CE. So I doubt Galatia was such an early stronghold for the Christian faith.

 

[Keenir]

Well, I find it interesting you interpreted it like that...

But if we want to be meticulous; it still has to have a Christian majority when the modern era kicks in.

the Galatians were there 2,000 years ago. I didn't know a full timeline was required. apologies.

 

[Paladin]

There are also a small group of Christian Turks in Moldova, the Gaghuz.

 

[machine3589]

-snip-

Crusader states would never make it into the 19th century.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Just to be interesting, I'm going to suggest the Byzantines manage to expel the Turks entirely from Anatolia sometime in the reign of John II or Manuel I, but the Empire remains fairly shaky once Manuel dies. In 1207, when the Third Crusade arrives (let's say the stronger Byzantium delays the Muslim reconquest of Jerusalem to circa 1200), the Empire is unable to resist the Crusaders and collapses, to be partitioned into Crusader States.

By the year 1800, when I'm guessing the "modern era" kicks in, we have an Empire of independent states under the nominal suzeiranty of the Roman Emperor in Constantinople, who rules the Balkans and Western Anatolia directly, exerting more or less feudal pressure on his Eastern vassals as time goes by. These are as follows.

Despotate of Trebizond (Orthodox)
Despotate of Sebastea (Orthodox)
Armenian Principality of Cilicia (Monophysite)
Duchy of Iconium (Catholic)
Duchy of Caesarea (Catholic)
Despotate of Pontus (Orthodox)
Turkish Kingdom of Attaleia (Orthodox)
Kingdom of Antioch (Catholic)
Kingdom of Jerusalem (Catholic)

Well, at least there's something a bit different for you all to mull over...

Your scenario is weak. He asked for Christian Turks. So, Manuel reconquers Anatolia, and the Turks are gradually Byzantinized.

The Byzantine Empire was never "Greek", it was "Greek speaking", in terms of government and high culture. There were lots of non-Greek speakers, and most of the population was non-Greek ethnically. There would be no problem having Turks as subjects of the empire - there already were some in OTL.