AH Challenge: Chinese India

This may very well have been done before, but I have yet to see it, so here it goes.

The challenge is to get Qing China (so post-1644) in charge of allof modern India by 1912 at the latest, the date of its (Qing Dynasty's) destruction. It must be firmly in charge of India. There can be no Princely States or other suzerain systems. The entirety of the nation must be fully integrated as Chinese provinces, but this does not mean they have to lose their culture or anything like that. There can also be no European trading posts left over, in the way that the British left to the French, Pondicherry.

Well, get to it!
 
Seems quite likely. Perhaps if the Qing modernized they might do it, but then comes the question of why do it. They already have enough land to look after already.
 
It requires a Chinese Bukkakae in a massive and staggering Scale.
Off the top of my head , no Rites Controversy between the Catholic Church and China would be a start.....
 
Well, he never said that the POD is from the Qing dynasty onwards...


Perhaps the Han dynasty can begin a slow invasion of india, and over time, sincaised *spelling?* india into china proper.


So when the Qing destroy the ming dynasty, they manage to grab large portion of india as well.
 
Well, he never said that the POD is from the Qing dynasty onwards...

A Ming empire powerful enough to colonize India would not fall to the Manchus, hence no Qing dynasty.

I just don't see it. China had neither the ability nor incentive to take over a huge, densely populated, agricultural center. They have plenty of that and had a hard time running it.
 
Well, he never said that the POD is from the Qing dynasty onwards...


Perhaps the Han dynasty can begin a slow invasion of india, and over time, sincaised *spelling?* india into china proper.


So when the Qing destroy the ming dynasty, they manage to grab large portion of india as well.


India has just as long (and possibly longer) a cultural heritage as China does. They have their own religions, philosophies, etc, and I doubt the people of India would get Sinicized very easily, even if ASBs did allow China to invade.
 
India's too big- culturally speaking Chinese culture didn't make that much of an inroad into Indianised SE Asia even in OTL. You had states like Malacca showing willing to acknowledge the Son of Heaven as political overlords but with little or no effect on their base culture (which, in the case of the Malay states is Indianised culture with or without a veneer of Islam, depending on time period). The same was true for the SE Asian states outside the Malay world- the Thai, Khmer and Burmese states were all at one time or another Chinese vassals but that's as far as it went. The only Sinicised SE Asian culture was Vietnam and that's because China directly conquered Vietnam- even then they had a helluva lot of trouble holding it and I don't really see Chinese armies going much farther than they did. Dominating SE Asia militarily is difficult because the mainland is mountains and rainforest (probably the nastiest combination you can get) and to dominate the Malay lands you need a comprehensive maritime culture.

For some reason, the Indian states seem to have been better at projecting "soft power" than China was- also, it appears China didn't do much cultural projection until relatively late. SE Asia was Indianised quite early on, long before China seems to have projected it's culture into places like Korea, Japan and Vietnam. Japan, for example, was populated by relatively primitive tribes and city-states right up to the 2nd C AD (notwithstanding it's national mythology) before Sinicisation took over. Hell, you could argue that the most outstanding example of India's "soft power" projection capabilities was the successful expansion of Buddhism to China and Japan :D

I believe I outlined a scenario in another thread where China is even more preoccupied with threats from the Central Asian steppes and Indian and Indianised traders are even more successful and develop an Indian cultural "arc" stretching from OTL Indianised SE Asia, up through the Philippines, Taiwan and Japan.

Now I'll wait for Hendryk to come along and tell me how I'm underestimating China :D
 

Hendryk

Banned
Now I'll wait for Hendryk to come along and tell me how I'm underestimating China :D
I agree with you that putting India under direct Chinese rule between 1644 and 1912 is too much of a stretch. In fact, even indirect rule would be quite difficult to arrange at such a time in history; the Tang and Yuan dynasties might have pulled it off (in a best-case scenario), or, as a last option, the early Ming while in full imperialist mode in the early 15th century, but even then the process would have taken decades and direct assimilation into the Empire wouldn't have been attempted.

Also, I'm puzzled about not even leaving the option of European trading posts, considering that at the height of its power, the Qing dynasty tolerated European presence in China itself, namely Macau.
 
The only place where I can see this as possible is under the Mongols, whom techincally weren't Chinese. Maybe a Muslum Monogliod China ruling over a Muslum Mongoliod Sultanate of Deli is as close as we come? All hail the Great Khan?
 
What about a Chinese thassalocracy?

If the Ming control the Indian Oceantrade, then they'd indirectly dominate the coast of India...
 

Hendryk

Banned
The only place where I can see this as possible is under the Mongols, whom techincally weren't Chinese.
A technicality, as you say. After all, the Normans weren't English when they invaded in 1066. But yeah, the Mongols are definitely an option if one is willing to push the date of the challenge a few centuries back. They could have turned south after conquering Kwarizm and marched to India instead of going due west. They would have, in effect, been earlier Mughals, except for the Muslim part.
 
What about a Chinese thassalocracy?

If the Ming control the Indian Oceantrade, then they'd indirectly dominate the coast of India...

Developing one is a bit tricky though- we're not talking about massive treasure ship expeditions. To develop steady trade connections Chinese merchants would be comepting against Indian and Arab merchants who already dominated the Indian Ocean trade.
 
Developing one is a bit tricky though- we're not talking about massive treasure ship expeditions. To develop steady trade connections Chinese merchants would be comepting against Indian and Arab merchants who already dominated the Indian Ocean trade.

This is where the cannons come in.

The Dutch and Portuguese, IMO, show you how it can be done.
 
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