AH Challenge: Britian and Germany ally in WWI

With a POD after 1871, make Britain and Germany allies against France in World War I (or whatever TTL's equivalent would be called).

Bonus points if the US enters the war on the British/German side.

(Didn't know whether to place this in before or after 1900-the POD will probably be before, but it won't start having real effects till after...)
 
Well there were the two overtures for an Anglo-German Alliance by Chamberlain. Those would probably be a good starting point to work from to create this scenario.
 
Well there were the two overtures for an Anglo-German Alliance by Chamberlain. Those would probably be a good starting point to work from to create this scenario.

When were those? I hadn't heard of them. My idea for a POD was something that gets rid of Admiral von Tirpitz and his buildup of the German High Seas Fleet. IIRC, this was (and was perceived as) an attempt to surpass British naval supremacy, the prospect of which scared the British into allying with France and Russia (both of which it had previously seen as rivals) to contain Germany.

Would no naval buildup be a sufficient POD, or is something more (or multiple PODs) required.
 
Different Kaiser

If Wilhelm doesn't survive to adulthood and Prinz Heinrich becomes Kaiser, I think you get what you're looking for. Heinrich was well liked at home and abroad and was very astute when it comes to naval matters. I don't think he's nearly as likely to push for the type of Navy that alienates England.
 
Wasn't Edward VIII (being a Yank my knowledge of the Royals isn't very good, you know the one with all the girls:D) really pro Nazi? IIRC, Hess's plan to ally with British nobility wasn't exactly ASB and had been feasible a few years before. I think Wilhelm had proposed several alliances to the British and they ignored them, because they thought he was the idiot cousin?
 
Wrong war, mate.

I have seen a timeline or two about this I believe. Mostly involving Fashoda and an earlier war.


Thanks for the responses everyone!

I like Bulls Run's idea the best-I'm not looking for a Fashoda War (though a different outcome of Fashoda might be part of it) just a POD or set of PODs that result in the British allying with Germany instead of France in the early 1900's.

Any other thoughts on how to achieve this?
 
Well, again, Fashoda is the best bet. Not so much let it build up into a war, but have the British relent rather then the French, resulting in the division of Sudan between the two. The British, now angered at the French, back Germany instead of the France when they try and occupy Morocco, allowing it to keep its independence. Germany and the British Empire will come closer, and might form an alliance (there are other problems that are not so easily fixed). The British effort in the Great War will likely be limited to the colonies and the sea; one of their major objectives would be reversing the disgrace at Fashoda.
 
How's this for an idea:
POD 1: Wilhelm dies sometime before he became Kaiser IOTL. Prinz Heinrich becomes Kaiser and retains the services of Bismark for longer than Wilhelm did IOTL. German foreign policy is somewhat more competent, and though Germany sides with Austria over Russia, it maintains a better relationship with Britain than OTL and doesn't conduct OTL's buildup of the High Seas Fleet.

POD 2: The Fashoda incident escalates into a French-British war. No other European countries become involved, and the war is fought almost entirely at sea and in colonial possessions. Britain wins, forces the French to concede all of Sudan, and annexes some French colonies for good measure.

France is humiliated, and its foreign policy becomes anti-British and anti-German. Determined to avenge the "Fashoda disaster", the French begin a large-scale naval buildup, which alarms the British. France also concludes an anti-German entente with Russia. In response, Germany courts Britain, and eventually, the two nations conclude their own allaince.

Plausible?
 
How's this for an idea:
POD 1: Wilhelm dies sometime before he became Kaiser IOTL. Prinz Heinrich becomes Kaiser and retains the services of Bismark for longer than Wilhelm did IOTL. German foreign policy is somewhat more competent, and though Germany sides with Austria over Russia, it maintains a better relationship with Britain than OTL and doesn't conduct OTL's buildup of the High Seas Fleet.

POD 2: The Fashoda incident escalates into a French-British war. No other European countries become involved, and the war is fought almost entirely at sea and in colonial possessions. Britain wins, forces the French to concede all of Sudan, and annexes some French colonies for good measure.

France is humiliated, and its foreign policy becomes anti-British and anti-German. Determined to avenge the "Fashoda disaster", the French begin a large-scale naval buildup, which alarms the British. France also concludes an anti-German entente with Russia. In response, Germany courts Britain, and eventually, the two nations conclude their own allaince.

Plausible?

Pretty plausible. Whenever I see these scenarios I always wonder what the Balkans will do? I mean where does Austria go? Where does Turkey go? What the hell is Italy going to do?

I was thinking about something like this a few months ago. I had Austria siding with France and Italy going with Britain/Germany. Turkey was neutral if I remeber correctly. It's probably bullshit as I paid no attention to the colonies.

On the spot I'd say a BEF in Europe, massive naval war in the Med, most of the army is in the colonies. And maybe a D-Day 1918 if things go badly.
 
Pretty plausible. Whenever I see these scenarios I always wonder what the Balkans will do? I mean where does Austria go? Where does Turkey go? What the hell is Italy going to do?

I was thinking about something like this a few months ago. I had Austria siding with France and Italy going with Britain/Germany. Turkey was neutral if I remeber correctly. It's probably bullshit as I paid no attention to the colonies.

On the spot I'd say a BEF in Europe, massive naval war in the Med, most of the army is in the colonies. And maybe a D-Day 1918 if things go badly.

Well, in my scenario Austria would be a German ally and Russia a French ally (I think this is the most likely scenario-Austria and Russia have major conflicts of interest in the Balkans, and Germany is IMHO most likely to side with Austria)

Russia still wanted to further expand into Ottoman territory at this point (and even take Constantinople, or at least ensure free passage of its ships through the Bosphorus), so the Ottomans would probably be forced into the British/German camp for their own protection. IOTL, the biggest European investors in the Ottoman Empire were Britain and Germany, and they would be allies with each other ITTL.

As for the rest of the Balkans, Serbia is a definate Franco-Russian ally, Greece is a probable Franco-Russian ally (historically they had a good relationship with the British, but at this point, many Greeks still wanted to achieve the Megali Idea*, and would likely support anyone who promised to help them). Assuming the Balkan Wars go as OTL, this makes Bulgaria a probable German ally (they wanted territory controlled by Serbia).

Italy is the real wildcard-they want territory from France (Nice, Savoy, Corsica, probably Tunisia) and Austria (Trento, south Tyrol, Trieste, the eastern shore of the Adriatic), and an alliance with either is plausible.

*Unification under Greece of all "historically Greek" territories. What was considered "historically Greek territory" varied-the most extreme forms of the Megali Idea called for Greece to take all Anatolia-but it usually included OTL Greece plus Thrace, Constantinople, and the eastern shore of the Aegean Sea
 
How's this for an idea:
POD 1: Wilhelm dies sometime before he became Kaiser IOTL. Prinz Heinrich becomes Kaiser and retains the services of Bismark for longer than Wilhelm did IOTL. German foreign policy is somewhat more competent, and though Germany sides with Austria over Russia, it maintains a better relationship with Britain than OTL and doesn't conduct OTL's buildup of the High Seas Fleet.

POD 2: The Fashoda incident escalates into a French-British war. No other European countries become involved, and the war is fought almost entirely at sea and in colonial possessions. Britain wins, forces the French to concede all of Sudan, and annexes some French colonies for good measure.

France is humiliated, and its foreign policy becomes anti-British and anti-German. Determined to avenge the "Fashoda disaster", the French begin a large-scale naval buildup, which alarms the British. France also concludes an anti-German entente with Russia. In response, Germany courts Britain, and eventually, the two nations conclude their own allaince.

Plausible?

I think it's very plausible. I can really see the French viewing the Germans and Great Britain as practically one and the same in this scenario. The French have hated them them both for a long time and vice-versa. Interesting things can happen with this time line. I can see the French trying to get the British out of Gibraltar so they can have free reign in the Med and a safe harbor for their "Flotte de hautes mers" Pardon my French. ;)
 
When were those? I hadn't heard of them. My idea for a POD was something that gets rid of Admiral von Tirpitz and his buildup of the German High Seas Fleet. IIRC, this was (and was perceived as) an attempt to surpass British naval supremacy, the prospect of which scared the British into allying with France and Russia (both of which it had previously seen as rivals) to contain Germany.

Would no naval buildup be a sufficient POD, or is something more (or multiple PODs) required.

1898 and 1899. The book Dreadnought describes them pretty well.
 
POD 2: The Fashoda incident escalates into a French-British war. No other European countries become involved, and the war is fought almost entirely at sea and in colonial possessions. Britain wins, forces the French to concede all of Sudan, and annexes some French colonies for good measure.

France is humiliated, and its foreign policy becomes anti-British and anti-German. Determined to avenge the "Fashoda disaster", the French begin a large-scale naval buildup, which alarms the British. France also concludes an anti-German entente with Russia. In response, Germany courts Britain, and eventually, the two nations conclude their own allaince.

Plausible?

I agree with this in principle. Britain's 19th century foe ranged between the continental power of France and the rising star of the industrialist and expansionist Prussians/Germans, and it went back and forth depending on who was the most threatening one that week.

So to get Britain friendly with Germany, you must make it enemies with France.
 
Thanks for all your responses!

According to the Wikipedia article (yes, I know, but I needed something to refresh my memory), the French Foreign Minister, Theophile Delcasse, was pro-British and wanted to come to a settlement that would avert a war.

Can anyone with a good knowledge of French politics name a French statesman who would have been a bit more obstinate? Not necessarily to the point of declaring war on Britain, but dragging the crisis out until some jumpy French and British troops/ship crews (either at Fashoda or elsewhere) start a skirmish that incurs casualties.
 
Well, in my scenario Austria would be a German ally and Russia a French ally (I think this is the most likely scenario-Austria and Russia have major conflicts of interest in the Balkans, and Germany is IMHO most likely to side with Austria)

Russia still wanted to further expand into Ottoman territory at this point (and even take Constantinople, or at least ensure free passage of its ships through the Bosphorus), so the Ottomans would probably be forced into the British/German camp for their own protection. IOTL, the biggest European investors in the Ottoman Empire were Britain and Germany, and they would be allies with each other ITTL.

As for the rest of the Balkans, Serbia is a definate Franco-Russian ally, Greece is a probable Franco-Russian ally (historically they had a good relationship with the British, but at this point, many Greeks still wanted to achieve the Megali Idea*, and would likely support anyone who promised to help them). Assuming the Balkan Wars go as OTL, this makes Bulgaria a probable German ally (they wanted territory controlled by Serbia).

Italy is the real wildcard-they want territory from France (Nice, Savoy, Corsica, probably Tunisia) and Austria (Trento, south Tyrol, Trieste, the eastern shore of the Adriatic), and an alliance with either is plausible.

*Unification under Greece of all "historically Greek" territories. What was considered "historically Greek territory" varied-the most extreme forms of the Megali Idea called for Greece to take all Anatolia-but it usually included OTL Greece plus Thrace, Constantinople, and the eastern shore of the Aegean Sea

This is probably far more likely.
 
A map I made

Hope no one minds, but I made a map of German-Britain allied victory. Heres Africa anyway.

Germnay, Britain allied Victory..png
 
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