AH Challenge: Better Reconstruction

Diamond

Banned
Michael E Johnson said:
DOH!
Grade F-
I'd like to know who the fuck made you the voice of racial conscience and 'equality' of this board. Who are you to presume to judge anyone else? If they ever develop a way to utilize arrogance as an alternative power source, you could power a small country.
 
^Diamond, he has no points. His arguments are crap. They don't have a logical start or end. His bullshit could fertilize the Sinai.*

*Good Morning, Vietnam.
 
LOL

The natives getting restless-and personally insulting as usual-but thats always the 1st sign when you have lost an argument on substance and cant admit it.I really want you guys to know I understand where you are coming from-it must suck.
 
Michael E Johnson said:
LOL

The natives getting restless-and personally insulting as usual-but thats always the 1st sign when you have lost an argument on substance and cant admit it.I really want you guys to know I understand where you are coming from-it must suck.


That's just it Michael! You don't have any substance, and you go around preaching as though we are missing the point! A rational person would realize that when nobody is getting your argument, it might be a bit illogical or a bit too "nuanced," and would rephrase it. But not you!

Furthermore, the only personal insult you got was towards the bullshit you are spraying, which is liberal in its heapings.
 
Bulgaroktonos said:
That's just it Michael! You don't have any substance, and you go around preaching as though we are missing the point! A rational person would realize that when nobody is getting your argument, it might be a bit illogical or a bit too "nuanced," and would rephrase it. But not you!

LOL

There really is a difference between not understanding what I'm saying and not thinking its true.This board is stuffed to the rafters with people like yourself that deny what I'm saying is true-like the bright shiny rock that posted in here-but I'm sure even he understands what I'm saying-I think.Are you really saying you cant understand what I'm saying or that you just dont accept it?
 
Ok, next race. Mike this time argue in favour of higher pay for the Chiness Emgriants that came here to work on the Union-Pacific Railroad and why the discrimnation against asian races was so high.
 
Michael E Johnson said:
The fact that there are so many white Americans who can honsetly say that they have no guilt about slavery or dont have anything to do with it is because some of them really believe this-and why shouldnt they-they are white.If you are on the winning side of the racial dynamic in the United States its pretty understandable to not be able to see how you have directly and indirectly benefited from slavery and the enduring racsim that was its child or to have any guilt about that fact.All we as African Americans and white people of good will can do is try to educate them but as you see on this board many are more than happy with their ignorance.

Yes I benefited from slavery. There I said it. But everyone has benefited from someones loss or pain somewhere down the line. Every nation has done something to disadvantage other countries or even its own citizens to help the ones in power.
 
Michael E Johnson said:
LOL

There really is a difference between not understanding what I'm saying and not thinking its true.This board is stuffed to the rafters with people like yourself that deny what I'm saying is true-like the bright shiny rock that posted in here-but I'm sure even he understands what I'm saying-I think.Are you really saying you cant understand what I'm saying or that you just dont accept it?

Last post on this, cause you will simply either deny I have grasped your argument but still disagree on your conclusion, change the argument (again), or claim that I have not caught on.

Firstly, you claimed that all whites benefitted from slavery, regardless of when they came here. Thus, they are all guilty. When it was pointed out that blacks currently benefit, you claimed this is not the point, and that whites are guilty because they benefit more. When this was shown to be a ridiculous standard of placing guilt upon whites and not blacks as well, you decided to talk about how whites get more priviledges in our society. When this was agreed to, you went back to square one. You never finished an argument, and refused to allow anybody to agree with you.
 
:( You enjoy mocking us don't you? There is a reason this was called the land of oppertunity. People sacrificed their blood and their lives to build a better America and tame the west. (I admit that doesn't always come over as a good thing) But as it stands I feel more guilty over the Trail of Tears, and the Japaness-American Concentration Camps than I do about slavery. What does it take for good people that died in poverty and in church burnings whom helped slaves get north into Canada to earn your respect? Do you not aknoledge that their are those that helped your people in their time of need every chance they could?
 

Diamond

Banned
Michael E Johnson said:
This board is stuffed to the rafters with people like yourself that deny what I'm saying is true-like the bright shiny rock that posted in here-but I'm sure even he understands what I'm saying-I think.
Oh, I understand what you're saying. I just think it's a big steaming pile of bullshit. You are a master of taking a truth - in this case, that people have benefited from slavery - and twisting it like a goddam pretzel until you have somehow, in your own mind, made it apply to the way you want it to to everyone at every time.

Of course people benefited from slavery. What an obvious and disingenous thing to say. :rolleyes: If there was no profit to be made, slavery wouldn't have existed. Where I draw the line is when you start saying that EVERY WHITE PERSON IN EXISTENCE has profited from it. If that's the case, why do I do my own grocery shopping and clean my own house? :D (Yes, that was about as subtle as a kick in the head, but it seems to be all that you will listen to.) It is very true that many, many black people in the US live in appalling conditions - that are directly rooted in the brush-it-under-the-carpet attitude white folks had towards black after the ACW. However. That excuse does not hold water anymore, and hasn't for decades. This whole society is now weighted towards helping minorities 'climb the ladder'.

I find the very concept of slavery repugnant. It sickens me. Can you fucking understand that? But I refuse to accept that I bear responsibility for it. That is complete and utter nonsense. As Othniel said (and I said the same thing to you months ago and never got an answer), if an ancestor of yours committed murder, does that make you guilty of murder as well? I'm begging you now: please, develop some common sense.

And speaking of personal insults - your crude attempt at innuendo (see quote above) seems to fit that bill pretty well, actually.

And don't you dare give me a grade. You have no right to judge me. You know nothing about me - not a damn thing.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Race is not something that we can argue dispassionately. Our ancestors tried. They built entire "sciences" around it - eugenics, phrenology, etc. We still see the remnants of these pseudo-scientific endeavors in books like The Bell Curve.

However, we can't base our arguments on pathos alone. We need to examine what has happened to our country and what its state is today before we start flinging cavalier accusations around.

I don't know how it is in Denver, but growing up on the Jersey Shore, I saw how much it can suck to be poor and black. I say this because my economic situation wasn't better off. The greater part of my neighbors were black, as are many of my conservative Republican father's friends, but that didn't stop me from getting the shit kicked out of me on the bus ride to school by people who didn't know me or my family. Eventually I gave up on taking the bus and just walked to school. It gave me an opportunity to stop by a local greasy spoon and get some coffee. Thus began a lifelong habit.

One time a group of about 6 black kids ganged up on me while I was taking a shit in the bathroom. They startled me by throwing one of those industrial-sized aluminum trash cans into my stall and then beat me with it when I ran out. I was more humiliated than hurt, because the trash can was empty at the time. I didn't recognize any of them so the affair ended at that.

Ironically most of my classmates were not white. They were Indian and Chinese and Korean and even a few blacks. I went to the prom with a girl named Melissa who was from Trinidad. There were also Jews, but almost none of the Italian Americans - who made up a huge part of the population - were in my track at school.

Am I bitter? Yes, at the people who beat me up. They were assholes. There were plenty of assholes to go around, though, even Italian-American assholes. I'm pissed off at them all. At a certain level, everybody is disadvantaged, no matter what your skin color is. Things like skin color keep us divided, however, and fighting amongst ourselves. I had more in common with many of my (black) neighbors than plenty of the more wealthy white kids at my school, and yet the white kids never used to beat the shit out of me; they had other ways of snubbing me. I'm sure if the real racists were to see you railing out against the people here, MEJ, people who share so much in common with you, they'd have a great laugh. Ultimately they want those of us who are disadvantaged to stay where we are, and remain divided as we are.
 
MEJ reminds me of a story I read in a collection of vampire stories. Basically, all the undead are real, vampires, zombies, werewolves, its set in the present day as well. All these undead finally win legal status and equal rights a few years ago, and now in places like new york you can find zombie cab drivers. Anyway there is this newsanchor, like Bill O'Reilly. Hes extremely bigoted and is actively anti-undead on the air. The night anchor of the same station is a vampire whos "in the closet". Basically she hatches a plot to kidnap the guy and make him a vampire, so he couldnt continue on his crusade against "evil". They drag him into an alley blindfolded and tied up and prepare for the initiation. Then, to their astonishment, he turns into what looks like a solid shadow, 10 feet tall. The bonds drop away from him, and in a deep boominjg voice, he tells them that he has lived since the beginning of humanity, and that nothing can stop him. Then he kills them all.

MEJ reminds me of the shadow. He gains his "power" through hate and fear. MEJ has to believe that all non-blacks are to blame, for everything, so he can believe that even if he were tolerant and open-minded, no one else would. So MEJ has constructed a world were he can be justifiably bigoted, racist, and intolerant and feel good & right about it. He is a reactionary pure and simple.
 
Leo Caesius said:
Race is not something that we can argue dispassionately. Our ancestors tried. They built entire "sciences" around it - eugenics, phrenology, etc. We still see the remnants of these pseudo-scientific endeavors in books like The Bell Curve.

However, we can't base our arguments on pathos alone. We need to examine what has happened to our country and what its state is today before we start flinging cavalier accusations around.

I don't know how it is in Denver, but growing up on the Jersey Shore, I saw how much it can suck to be poor and black. I say this because my economic situation wasn't better off. The greater part of my neighbors were black, as are many of my conservative Republican father's friends, but that didn't stop me from getting the shit kicked out of me on the bus ride to school by people who didn't know me or my family. Eventually I gave up on taking the bus and just walked to school. It gave me an opportunity to stop by a local greasy spoon and get some coffee. Thus began a lifelong habit.

One time a group of about 6 black kids ganged up on me while I was taking a shit in the bathroom. They startled me by throwing one of those industrial-sized aluminum trash cans into my stall and then beat me with it when I ran out. I was more humiliated than hurt, because the trash can was empty at the time. I didn't recognize any of them so the affair ended at that.

Ironically most of my classmates were not white. They were Indian and Chinese and Korean and even a few blacks. I went to the prom with a girl named Melissa who was from Trinidad. There were also Jews, but almost none of the Italian Americans - who made up a huge part of the population - were in my track at school.

Am I bitter? Yes, at the people who beat me up. They were assholes. There were plenty of assholes to go around, though, even Italian-American assholes. I'm pissed off at them all. At a certain level, everybody is disadvantaged, no matter what your skin color is. Things like skin color keep us divided, however, and fighting amongst ourselves. I had more in common with many of my (black) neighbors than plenty of the more wealthy white kids at my school, and yet the white kids never used to beat the shit out of me; they had other ways of snubbing me. I'm sure if the real racists were to see you railing out against the people here, MEJ, people who share so much in common with you, they'd have a great laugh. Ultimately they want those of us who are disadvantaged to stay where we are, and remain divided as we are.


I'm sorry to hear that you were brutalized by black people.But I have to admit I'm puzzled about how it applies to what I have been saying about the racial dynamic in the United States.Why?Because while what happened to you is reprehesible and shouldnt happen to anyone its not the usual way it goes in the United States-black on white violence is rare where as black on black is the most common currently and thoughout the history of the country white on black violence has been much more common that black on white is over will be.The people in this thread are apparently incapable of grasping the concept of degree and I wouldnt want them to take what you have said to do that as you are usually a thoughtful poster.Racism and bigotry can certainly go both ways but there is NO question about whhich group has been the victim and who has been the criminal in the history of racism in the US.Denying this-as those here are doing- is beyond offensive and plain wrong.
 
Justin Green said:
MEJ reminds me of the shadow. He gains his "power" through hate and fear. MEJ has to believe that all non-blacks are to blame, for everything, so he can believe that even if he were tolerant and open-minded, no one else would. So MEJ has constructed a world were he can be justifiably bigoted, racist, and intolerant and feel good & right about it. He is a reactionary pure and simple.


The shadow in the United States is composed of people like yourself who cynically and arrogantly downplay the effects of slavery and racism in this land while benfiting from them .But there is hope-your numbers are dwindling every year :D I wish I could see 2105. :cool:
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Michael E Johnson said:
I'm sorry to hear that you were brutalized by black people.But I have to admit I'm puzzled about how it applies to what I have been saying about the racial dynamic in the United States.
My point is that when we, blacks and whites, fight like this, we're being played for saps. Have you ever seen the episode of the Twilight Zone, The Monsters on Maple Street? I sometimes feel like that. Asbury Park was a lot like that. I certainly don't feel that I was brutalized by "black people" - I was beaten up by a few bullies, some black some white, but I've come to realize that when it comes to bullies, skin color means very little. There are people on top and there are people on bottom - those of us who are on the bottom need to stick together or else we'll be victimized by those on top.

Race is one tool used to keep us divided.
 
Last edited:
No one is guilty for benefitting from an act in which they did not take part, unless by so benefitting, they are in some way furthering that act or similar acts.

A few specific examples: I benefit from the genocides perpetrated by the Israelites upon the Canaanites some three thousand years ago. Were it not for those acts, I simply wouldn't exist. Does this make me guilty for those atrocities? No. I simply have no choice. I can't go back in time and tell Joshua "Don't kill these guys. They're not so bad, and we can always assimilate them culturally."

I also benefit from the Holocaust. Were it not for this genocidal act, I would likely suffer a noticeable degree of anti-Semitism, instead of the cultural sensitivity which is currently extant. Does this make me responsible in any way for what the Nazis did? No. Much as I'd like to, I can't go back in time and shoot Hitler.

I have done no more to worsen the plight of the poor black population of America than any of you. Can I make it better? Yes. How? By refusing to take the easy way out, and instead of blaming everyone who isn't black, trying to do something about the real factors which are hurting the black communities: poverty, cultural hostility, and explicit racism.
 
Othniel said:
:( You enjoy mocking us don't you? There is a reason this was called the land of oppertunity. People sacrificed their blood and their lives to build a better America and tame the west. (I admit that doesn't always come over as a good thing) But as it stands I feel more guilty over the Trail of Tears, and the Japaness-American Concentration Camps than I do about slavery. What does it take for good people that died in poverty and in church burnings whom helped slaves get north into Canada to earn your respect? Do you not aknoledge that their are those that helped your people in their time of need every chance they could?


Disgusting but honest.I give you credit for finally saying it-black slavery isnt a big deal to you.Nor is the racism that resulted from it based on your attitude and what you have said .You are clearly not capable of understanding the concept of degree if you say that the Japanese internemt was worse than slavery-of course your attitude is a typical one in this country -why didnt you just come out a say it earlier?
 

Diamond

Banned
Michael E Johnson said:
Racism and bigotry can certainly go both ways but there is NO question about whhich group has been the victim and who has been the criminal in the history of racism in the US.Denying this-as those here are doing- is beyond offensive and plain wrong.
For. The. Last. Time.
I am not denying that there has been racism, is racism, and will be racism on the part of whites against blacks. That is fact. I am not disputing you. I am agreeing with you. Get it?

What I disagree with is your prediliction for lumping every white person into some mythical group of 'oppressors', as though you have a starring role in some apocalyptic end of times movie. I do not feel I am in the wrong when I feel offended by someone I don't know from shit, and who doesn't know ME from shit, starts saying I am benefiting from the slave trade. Maybe in your own mind you can take the role of victim and have the other voices in there agree with you, but it just ain't so in the real world.
 
Leo Caesius said:
There are people on top and there are people on bottom - those of us who are on the bottom need to stick together or else we'll be victimized by those on top.

I agree but what those on this board deny is that there is a racial elemnt to this fact in the US-they have to distort and deny to do this-doesnt work with me.
 
Michael E Johnson said:
I'm sorry to hear that you were brutalized by black people.But I have to admit I'm puzzled about how it applies to what I have been saying about the racial dynamic in the United States.Why?Because while what happened to you is reprehesible and shouldnt happen to anyone its not the usual way it goes in the United States-black on white violence is rare where as black on black is the most common currently and thoughout the history of the country white on black violence has been much more common that black on white is over will be.The people in this thread are apparently incapable of grasping the concept of degree and I wouldnt want them to take what you have said to do that as you are usually a thoughtful poster.Racism and bigotry can certainly go both ways but there is NO question about whhich group has been the victim and who has been the criminal in the history of racism in the US.Denying this-as those here are doing- is beyond offensive and plain wrong.

Who did what a hundred years ago doesn't matter one bit. As you note, the greatest cause of death and suffering among the black community is other black people. Us crazy white people aren't lynching blacks by the thousands; it's poverty and the crime which poverty brings which is the source of the black community's problems. If you actually want it to stop, quit bitching about whose ancestors did what and try to close the wealth gap.
 
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