AH Challenge: Better Reconstruction

Leo Caesius

Banned
An interesting fact: the first black student was admitted to Harvard University in 1865 - even before Jewish students were admitted. In order to teach Hebrew at Harvard, the first Jewish professor to do so was forced to convert to Christianity, and subsequent Professors of Hebrew and other Oriental Languages, were all Christian until quite recently (Peter Machinist, who currently holds the chair, is the first Jew to do so since Judah Monis (the man who coverted), even if there are a number of Jewish adjuncts and assistant professors at the department).

The quintessential difference between blacks and Jews, however, is that many Jews came to America fleeing persecution in their countries of origin, and hoping for a new and better life in the US. While life in the US was not always idyllic for American Jews, their situation was almost always improved after having moved here.
 
Leo Caesius said:
The quintessential difference between blacks and Jews, however, is that many Jews came to America fleeing persecution in their countries of origin, and hoping for a new and better life in the US. While life in the US was not always idyllic for American Jews, their situation was almost always improved after having moved here.

True. That says more about the conditions in Europe than those in America, as you just noted. One could, if so inclined to score a rhetorical point, note that despite the poverty, crime, and other unpleasantry to which African-Americans are subject, they're overall still better off than they'd be if they lived in the African nations from which their distant ancestors were taken.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
Good grief.

Michael, what the flying fuck were you doing resurrecting this ancient thread to post ridiculous me too... excuse me "fuck yeah"... flamebait responses to Spartan's extreme ethnic seperatist "reconstruction" ideas? Nothing possibly good could come of this, especially since this is NOT THE CHAT FORUM, and you damn well knew that.

I am really, really tired of your consistent contributions to off-topic flame threads whenever they involve US race relations. And more or less *starting* such a thread in the discussion forum in such a pointless way, followed by a bunch of needlessly rude little cracks about "grade F-" and incivility like "LOL"ing at others' opinions is just too much.

You're kicked for a week. Don't pull this shit again.

Spartan, you are way way out of line with such comments as referring to Southerners in general as "rabid vicious animals" and "subhumans". I don't tolerate that crap here. Banned.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
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Forum Lurker said:
I'm telling you it's a wealth thing because that's what statistics and history have proven. Why are blacks getting bad educations? You can't blame "separate and equal" anymore; it's because their schools are bad, and that's because the districts are poor and crime-riddled. Why do police officers assume that blacks are more likely to be involved in gang crime? Statistically, they're right. Why is someone with a black-sounding name less likely to be hired for a job? Simply the fact that I can say "black-sounding name" and be understood by even a handful of people should tell you that there's a very real cultural gap between blacks and every other group that's been in America for this long. How does this problem get solved? How do blacks cease to be poor, crime-ridden, and culturally divided from their neighbors to an intolerable extreme? Look at history. The Irish, the Italians, the Russian Jews, all of them have been at some point in time exactly where the black community is now. They were poor, they were considered by law and common wisdom to be a separate and inferior race to proper whites, and they were associated with organized and violent crime. You'll notice that these are no longer the case, and this is entirelybecause they assimilated and reached the middle class.

You're quite wrong about that, actually. Blacks in the US are tremendously segregated from whites, in terms of living in physically seperate neighborhoods. FAR more so than any other immigrant group to the US ever was. *Today*, residential segregation is still utterly huge in its extent, and it's diminishing only sloooowly because whites still don't like to live in a neighborhood that a bunch of black people are moving into. And whites have for quite a while had far more hostility to blacks (especially to blacks moving into their neighborhood) than towards any other immigrant group. Black assimilation into mainstream American society has been consistently blocked by whites, and the roadblocks put up in the recent past were far more than those any other immigrant group faced.

I mean, good grief, it's only been a few decades since legalized segregation and institutionalized racism gave most blacks little choice but to end up poor, poorly educated, second class citizens. So when the civil rights era came to a close, there was this population that mostly lived in communities that were highly segregated, very poor internally, and had a poor educational base. So then what happens? Decades of clawbacks to social programs. Decades of the "war on crime", i.e. brutal but ineffective police repression of poor communities. And of course a continuation of the US system of school funding, where poor communities have poor schools, causing the better off parents who have the ability to live elsewhere to do so, helping contribute to a steady brain drain that keeps the area poor.

As for racism, it's not strictly linked to poverty. People will always look down on identifiably different groups who have lower status than themselves, but this doesn't always show itself as vicious racism. I mean, good grief, the US became considerably less racist during the civil rights era, and it wasn't because black people suddenly became richer, it's because it became socially unacceptable to be a blatant bigot. Recently there's been a _reversal_ of that trend. During the 1990s, with poverty actually dropping because of the economic boom, and with crime rates declining, racism and xenophobia *rose* in the US. Opinion polling found a marked increase in people expressing sentiments that were xenophobic in general (not just racist but also sexist, anti-immigrant, etc). Over the past two decades there's been a significant rightward shift in some aspects of American culture, a reactionary backlash combined with a rise in the influence of the religious right... and it has brought with it a noticable increase in racist attitudes that is quite independent of trends in poverty and crime.
 
Yes, blacks are very segregated geographically; not more so, I think, than many immigrant groups were and are. Chinatowns are not entirely a figment of the past, and in Minneapolis/St. Paul the recently immigrated Hmong and Somali are as geographically isolated as they really can be, given housing availability. I admit that the "white flight" which was one of the major contributors to black residential segregation was the result of racism; I would argue that now, though, the reason for its persistence is based overwhelmingly in the poverty and crime rates in those areas, and not because whites refuse to live near blacks. To the extent that they do, it's because black neighborhoods are seen as harboring dangerous criminals in droves, and it seems to me that while overstated, there is an element of truth in that perception.

What would you propose as a solution to the problem, if not closing the wealth gap? I can't think of any reasonable way to desegregate the neighborhoods except to make them more appealing places to live, and I can't think of any way to do that besides increasing their relative affluence; certainly, the "war on crime" is at best ineffectual and at worse greatly aggravates the problem, by increasing distrust and misperceptions on both sides.
 
I would point out too, that according to a survey brought up earlier by Ian himself a while back, young people have a lot less racist attitudes towards blacks than older generations, and are far more likely to mix socially with them and enter relationships with them. So, hopefully, if the nation can hang together in the meantime, the problem might literally die out...
 

Ian the Admin

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Donor
Forum Lurker said:
Yes, blacks are very segregated geographically; not more so, I think, than many immigrant groups were and are.

It's been extensively studied, the most famous example being the statistical studies reported in the book "American Apartheid". "Chinatowns" and so forth were never as segregated as black Americans are.

I would argue that now, though, the reason for its persistence is based overwhelmingly in the poverty and crime rates in those areas, and not because whites refuse to live near blacks.

Polls consistently show (I think these were mentioned in "American Apartheid" but it could be other sociological stuff I've read), that white Americans are uncomfortable with the idea of living in a neighborhood that is more than 10% black.

What would you propose as a solution to the problem, if not closing the wealth gap? I can't think of any reasonable way to desegregate the neighborhoods except to make them more appealing places to live, and I can't think of any way to do that besides increasing their relative affluence; certainly, the "war on crime" is at best ineffectual and at worse greatly aggravates the problem, by increasing distrust and misperceptions on both sides.

"Decreasing the wealth gap" isn't something that can be done directly, but which will only happen at a faster-than-glacial pace through encouraging residential desegregation, and removing the huge impediments that US government policy put on any area with lots of poor people concentrated in it. More egalitarian school funding would go a huge way. A sane criminal justice system would go a huge way. There are a lot of shitty things municipalities are doing or have done to segregate the poor from the rest of the city - for example, the tendency to find a dumpy part of town and locate lots of "housing projects" in it.

A lot of the rest, though, is a result of the US being an increasingly shitty place to be poor in. If your whole community is fairly poor, it's hard to make lots of progress in the middle of a general increase in the difficulty of being poor.
 
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