AH Challenge: Balkanized South America

Okay, so in OTL we see only a dozen or so countries in SoAm. So how can we get more than, oh, 25? The POD must be after 1700, and before 1890. Reasons: I don't want another "indian nations all survive" TL, and I don't want a total breakdown TL where all SoAm countries collapse. Be creative, please.
 

maverick

Banned
-There's:
A. Brazil, which could collapse to one of the several rebellions the Empire suffered at Rio Grande do Sul(Republicans) and in the Northern Provinces (slaves, I think)
B. Argentina: During the civil wars of the 1820s, perhaps with two or three leagues of provinces+Independent Buenos Aires+Indian Confederacy in Patagonia...

There could also be seccessioniest movements at Bolivia, like today, but for different reasons...
 

Thande

Donor
There's the old saw about independent Welsh Patagonia (though that's probably butterflied away by the earlier POD you'd need).

Is an independent Amazonia possible as a buffer state, even though I know it probably wouldn't be viable in the abstract?
 
-There's:
A. Brazil, which could collapse to one of the several rebellions the Empire suffered at Rio Grande do Sul(Republicans) and in the Northern Provinces (slaves, I think)
Actually, the rebellions in the Northern Provinces were republicans too. The only important slave rebellion that happened in Brazil during the 19th was the Male Revolt, started by the muslim slaves.

Since the POD can be in the 18th century, what about France, Britain or the Dutch taking more lands. Once I read that the French, in the end of the Seven Years Wars, were planning an invasion to Rio. Maybe a French victory could make some interesting changes.
 
The first thing I though was Argentina, witch could have splitted into three or more countries. But I don't find a proper pod. If we weaken Buenos Aires, then the other provinces together might defeat it (as it happened in 1852 with Brazilian help). Maybe if there is no Portugese invasion of Uruguay so the new country has two ports, and we also give a small navy to the province of Entre Rios, so they can open and mantain a port in Parana against a blocade from either Uruguay or Buenos Aires. We might also give the resources to the Northern Army for an offensive in Bolivia while San Martin invaded Peru (witch was the plan, but the resources were used in improving Buenos Aires instead), so Bolivia remains as part of Argentina but distant with the southern provinces. Also, the mapuches increase trade with either the UK or France and get some sort of alliance with them witch will prevent the Argentinian invasion later in the 19th century.
But of course, all that might not balkanize the country, it might just distribute the power and make a much less centralized country.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Have more American/European interference and adventurism, perhaps a history of more successful filibustering in Venezuela/Columbia by Lafitte/Cochrane etal followed by a successful Wagner in Central America encouraging others, particularly the Brazilian Confederamos, (or whatever they were called). This would all set the stage for Gilded Age American companies to create the "corporate states" scenario we all know and love a century or two earlier, carving the continent up into squabbling satrapies of various US capitalists.
 
Well, in OTL Colombia had almost broken into a number of states - i.e. there could been an independent state around Barranquilla on the coast of Carribean Sea...
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
If the Portuguese royal family had not decamped to Rio, then Brasil would have remained a far less united province rather than been forged together as an empire. If Napoleon did something similar with Portugal as he did with Spain (and with the Portuguese royals unable to flee Lisbon), then Brasil could well splinter apart like the rest of (Spanish) South America was doing, and you could end up with several post-Portuguese states in the area. In addition, as these would all be based on the coast, the interior could well be more up for grabs by the ex-Spanish neighbours, and there could be a tendency for these to fracture more.

I recall an Oriente that broke away from Venezuela for a while (1830s ?) and wonder if this could be woven into the fabric of the timeline too

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Well, in OTL Colombia had almost broken into a number of states - i.e. there could been an independent state around Barranquilla on the coast of Carribean Sea...
There was also the 1000 days war in Colombia from 1899-1902. That might have resulted in a split country
 
I think the Dutch invaded Brazil at one point? Would this work?
It was in the 17th century, so it's before the POD required. I dunno if the Dutch could grab some lands in the 18th century, but they were making money in the Caribbian Islands and in Asia, and I believe it's hard they would expend resources to invade Brasil again.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
It was in the 17th century, so it's before the POD required. I dunno if the Dutch could grab some lands in the 18th century, but they were making money in the Caribbian Islands and in Asia, and I believe it's hard they would expend resources to invade Brasil again.
IIRC the Dutch....er bugger, something to do with Pernambuco and not treating farmers right, but I've forgotten what, so I don't RC

Befuddled Regards
Grey Wolf
 
IIRC the Dutch....er bugger, something to do with Pernambuco and not treating farmers right, but I've forgotten what, so I don't RC

Befuddled Regards
Grey Wolf
Well, basically the Brazilian farmers did a lot of debts with the Western Indies Company, and when the Dutch tried to have the money back, the farmers revolted and expelled them from Brazil. There were other reasons too, but it was the main issue.
 

Thande

Donor
Can we use that French colony in Rio de Janeiro I mentioned earlier? A bit hard to reconcile with all the later-POD suggestions I admit...
 
Can we use that French colony in Rio de Janeiro I mentioned earlier? A bit hard to reconcile with all the later-POD suggestions I admit...
Well, in the 18th century the French tried to conquer Rio twice. In 1710, the Breton privateer Ducler invaded the city, being defeated. But in 1711, another Breton, Duguay-Trouin, conquered Rio, revenging Ducler and looted the city. But he needed to leave, because there were English ships in the area seeking him. He was received as a hero in France. Maybe, if you find a way to have a war between France and Portugal without envolving Britain, then you can have a French Rio in the 18th century.
 
Well, almost everything has already being said. I don't know if Peru or Chile could have balcanized between 1700 and 1890. May be you can get a Mapuche state only in parts Southern Chile and Neuquen under forgein protection (that is much more possible to me than one that comprises all Araucania and Patagonia)

Argentina was in fact diveded between 1852 and 1859. The state of Buenos Aires had it's own constitution and its own foreign representatives. The rest of the Old 14 provinces formed a separate state (The Argentinian Confederation). If the autonomist party had being stronger in Buenos Aires during this period, and if Buenos Aired had won the Battle of Cepeda against the Confederation, this separation might have continue.
It's not certain however, because, as Juanmanuel said, one state may just have conquered the other. The Confederation had no sea port, and that was a source of inestability.

But, hypotetically, it is possible to have a scenario in which both states are divided, and compete for getting the lands in the pampas. Patagonia might then go to Buenos Aires (the most likely), to the British, to the French or to even the Welsh (if the settlement gets independent during a war between Buenos aires and the Confederation).
 
I like the one about Brazil becoming a plethora of divided states. How about the French going through with their invasion of Portugal instead of the Invasion by Stealth of Spain? They could keep the royal family in Portugal and when the colonies in the New World revolt Brazil won't stick together. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... Can you say TL?
 
I like the one about Brazil becoming a plethora of divided states. How about the French going through with their invasion of Portugal instead of the Invasion by Stealth of Spain? They could keep the royal family in Portugal and when the colonies in the New World revolt Brazil won't stick together. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... Can you say TL?
Could Junot speed up the run to Lisbon? After all, when he arrived in the city, he could see the ships with royal family still in the horizon. If he came earlier, maybe he could have taken the Braganzas.
 
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