AH Challenge: Austria unites the German states

This is a scenario I haven't seen discussed yet. So AHers, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to make Austria unite a German nation sometime in the 19th century, preferably leaving a surviving Prussia separate but Grossdeutschland is an option as well. POD can be anywhere from the late 18th century onward.

Were are these Germany's borders? Is the Hapsburg monarchy constitutional now? What do they do with Hungary and the lands beyond it? How do the other great powers react to this new player? Who's going to be fighting who in the inevitable(?) Great War?
 

Susano

Banned
Wrong subforum. Mod needs to move it.

Aaaaanyways. The problem with Austria are of course their out-of-GErmany holdings. Thats why after the HREGN was broken and after the Vienna Congress, most nationalists tended towards Prussia, nearly from the beginning. But, OTOH, if Austria doesnt have those holdings, it wont be a great power, and hence no contender for Prussia.

What is possible of course, if difficult, is a centralisation of imperial power (in Habsburg hands). This would best have to be before the Westphalian Peace, though, better yet before the reformation. There were in the beginning of teh 16th century, shortly before reformation started, visions about "Imperial Reform", but nothing whatsoever came out of it. I dont know exactly what has to be changed to have that succeed, but its one angle. Of course, early 16thc entury is probably too early for what you look for :D

Another way would be to reshuffle the Habsburg and Hohenzollern familes so that comes 1848 we have a very liberal Austrian Emperor, and a very reactionary Prussian King. Austria supports 1848 (for Hungary, maybe hence an earlier Ausgleich as well), Prussia opposes it as IOTL, hence the revolutionaries rally aroudn Austria. of course, wether one liberal Emperor is enough to go against Austrias reactionary elites is a good counterquestion, but I suppose its possible at least...
 
Oesterriech as Leader in the Zweiter HRE

One of the other sticky points here is the religion angle. The NordDeutscher Bund was created of the largely protestant (EKD) principalities with Prussia as a natural leader.

In fact in the old HRE, Austria and its Hapsburg leadership were the DeFacto Emperors after the 1500's. The constant devolution of Imperial power (other than titular head of the HRE) was due to the aftermath of the Investiture conflict (ca. 11th century) with he Vatican (Pope Gregory?) . After the Diet of Worms, each of the Elector states (and eventually all of the states) did all they could to increase and safeguard "home rule" for their little fiefdoms.

The Emperors after Henry IV (of Carnossa fame) never had the means or wherewithal to re-impose the political power of the Imperium, as well as the titular. As Susano has noted the time might have been before the 30 years war (during which the French [a Catholic nation] in their inimitable way under Cardinal Richelieu assisted the Protestant cause after Nordlingen in return for their prize - Elsace & Lothringen). The map after the "Peace" of Westfalen and the "[FONT=&quot]Landeshoheit" [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]says more than any thing else could concerning the issue.

By the middle of the 19th century, Austria's time was past, the German Civil war, "Der Deutsche Krieg" of 1866 ensured that Austria would not be a player in the re-unification and establishment of the Second Reich.

Just my thoughts...

Bernie P2
 

Susano

Banned
Eh, IMO, the religious angle of politics in the 19th century has been vastly exaggerated. It was still an issue in the 17th century of course (hence 30 Years War, but even that was more politcial than religious), but it already had quite waned as political factor in the 18th century, and in the 19th century at least in international politics it was no factor anymore. The North German Confederation was North German because that was where Prussia was. After all, Bismarck hadnt aimed at uniting Germany (that "just happened", so to say), just at an uber-Prussia - which the NGC was.

And teh Habsburg were also the de jure Emperors since teh 15th century ;) I dunno where the de fcto comes from...:confused: do you mean de facto hereditary even if de jure not? If so, then yes.

In the 19th century much revolutionaty stuff happened, so Austria could just have another hour in the sun, its not impossible. But yes, unlikely...
 

General Zod

Banned
Cool, a thread discussing one of my preferred causes, Greater Germany.

I agree with Susano that the importance of religious contrasts in the 19th century German politics have been greately exaggerated. The main obstacles to the establishment of an Austrian-led Grossdeutchsland were the political rivalry between Austria and Prussia, the vast extent of non-German territories in the Habsburg Empire, and the reactionary nature of Austrian leadership of the time.

I also agree that the best PoD to create what you seek is in 1848. We need a far-sighted, fairly liberal, and expansionist or German-nationalist Austrian Emperor, who can accept setting up a liberal constitutional monarchy in Austria and administrative divisiion of the Empire as the price to rebuild the HRE as a federal centralized state. Say a PoD that rewrites the personality of Franz Joseph. When the 1848 Revolution comes around, he grants a liberal constitution to Austria and autonomy to non-German areas of Hungary, Croatia, and Galicia under a personal union (an earlier expanded Ausgleich). Austria, Bohemia-Moravia, and Slovenia are set up as a "German Kingdom". A peace is signed with Savoy which cedes Lombardy-Venetia to Sardinia-Piedmont in exchange for an alliance. When the Frankfurt parliament is elected, this causes all German liberal-nationalists but the radical left to rally around the Austrian Emperor to establish a Greater German Empire. Austria supports a liberal revolution in Prussia. The Paulskirche Constitution is voted which establishes the (Greater) German Empire, with an Habsburg hereditary emperor, spanning the territory of the German Confederation plus Prussia and Posen. It is in personal union with the Kingdom of Hungary.

The Empire supports the federal unification of Italy alongside the German model, under the leadership of its new Sardinia-Piedmont ally.

Moreover, France and Russia need to be addressed. France is paralyzed by revolution and political instability up to early 1849, but afterwards it shall most likely attempt to reverse these unifications by war, but the combined forces of Germany, Hungary, and Italy should most likely defeat France. Russia is a more difficult issue: it is not so much geopolitically committed to keep Germany separate as France, but it needs to be countered or placated. A PoD that keeps Russia distracted in 1848-49 would be most helpful to fulfill the scenario: a delayed or anticipated insurrection in Poland, an insurrection in Finland, a war with Sweden or Turkey are all good possibilities. Additionally, its goodwill may be bought by ceding Galicia and Posen, and giving the support of Germany to Russian support in the Balkans and the Middle East.

As an aside note, it is completely false that the centralization of the HRE was impossible after Henry IV. As a matter of fact, one of the best possibilities for an early German unification was during the Hohenstaufen dynasty. You need a somewhat more successful and longeve Frederick I and Henry VI, and a Frederick II raised to think like a German King with possessions in Italy rather than the other way around. By the time this Frederick II dies, he should have brought Germany to a comparable level of centralization as England or France.
 
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Cool, a thread discussing one of my preferred causes, Greater Germany.

One of mine too. I think this board is full of Deutschophiles.

This seems hard to get to work, but I think 1848 is the year to do it (though we should have an earlier PoD). What if a bigger French Revolution sparks a wave of revolutions throughout Europe, both during the original revolution and in 1848. This shows the rising power of German nationalism to a more liberal Austrian leadership, and maybe it even starts picking off the smaller German states as OTL's Prussia did. At the same time, Prussia is for its own reasons less effective. This is a pretty tall order.

Is there a way to keep Prussia out of it, at least for a time? It's not too much to think that Prussia would not be thrilled about an Austrian-dominated Germany. The ensuing war ends with Austria controlling everything west of the Elbe, plus Mecklenburg and Schleswig-Holstein. Prussia is never overrun, however, and maintains its independence. Hopefully someday there will be a non-Nazi anschluss, but in the meantime they seem likely to go pick on Poland, and perhaps anger Russia. They may find themselves in a lasting alliance with Britain. Alternate Churchill will comment how visiting Prussia is just like visiting Germany, except without all those Austrians about.
 
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