AH Challenge: Austria joins the Federal Republic of Germany

Eurofed

Banned
I don´t see East Germany and East Austria coming together. Both are seperated through the CSSR, and a exclave don´t make much sense for the GDR. Economical was the GDR in the 50/60 not really in the position to support East-Austria. On the propagandist side its more interesting for the Soviets to play the cord as "Defender of austrian independence" against "renewed great-german imperalism".

I see the point of your reasoning, at least for the early Cold War. However, I also see an independent East Austria becoming a drain on the Comecon and Warsaw Pact in the medium term. Are the Soviets willing to make for this throughout the Cold War, just to make a propaganda point that gets more and more stale as western Austria in West Germany becomes a spectacular economic and political success story, esp. when the GDR becomes marginally better off in late 1960s and 1970s and more capable to sustain an eastern Austria exclave ? I wonder.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Are there any possiblities to expand "East" Austria, with some Hungarian or Czechoslovakian territorium with somekind of industry, to make it a sustainable state.
 
I see the point of your reasoning, at least for the early Cold War. However, I also see an independent East Austria becoming a drain on the Comecon and Warsaw Pact in the medium term. Are the Soviets willing to make for this throughout the Cold War, just to make a propaganda point that gets more and more stale as western Austria in West Germany becomes a spectacular economic and political success story, esp. when the GDR becomes marginally better off in late 1960s and 1970s and more capable to sustain an eastern Austria exclave ? I wonder.

In the 1970s the Soviets jumped on the idea, that such an animal like a united german Nation didn´t exist and that there was two different Nations in West and East. With this and the ongoing "fight" for a seperate austrian Nation since the 1950s, there surly will Anschluss of EA at the GDR. I don´t think EA will drain the resources of the COMECON much more then Cuba.
But if nothing else helps, maybe a CASSR may be possible.
 

Eurofed

Banned
In spite of Freivolk's really good suggestion, the major obstacle: Since the fall of the Nazis, Austrians have abandoned their long-standing identification as Germans. The desire for a union with Germany was certainly popular in Austria in the 20s in 30s also outside the extreme right; but that had changed completely. In spite of the considerable support of the "Anschluss" in Austria, any thought of a combination with Germany would have been blemished as an occupation of Austria by Germany from 45 on.

I think your are greately exaggerating the influence the "Hitler's first victim" mindset had in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Yes, the desire to escape blame for Nazi crimes AND to get off the Soviets' thumb were the factors that eventually motivated the self-invention of a separate Austrian national consciousness. But it happened gradually during the late 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, not overnight in May 1945. If East Austria gets communist in 1949-50, there is still going to be a very sizable amount of self-identification as Germans in West Austrians at the time, which desire to seek protection with their northern brethren will quickly and easily stoke. The main motivator to stay separate, getting the Soviets off eastern Austria, has vanished, given that the Communist coup indicates the Soviets are here to stay, so there is no great incentive as reinvent themselves as the Austrian nation. At that point, shifting the blame for Nazi crimes is not that important, the Americans in 1950-51 are already in full Cold War mood and obviously going to give West Germans a big break about past misdeeds if they behave like good pets. West Austrians may fit in nicely, no need of a separate national identity.

Moreover, the Austrian population had a strong desire for the position
the country could actually take for the whole Cold War time: A neutral one.

Communist takeover of East Austria makes the vast majority of West Austrians realize that this is now a pipedream, and makes them sufficiently angered at and fearful of Stalin that they let it go. Just like the Berlin Blockade did for West Germany.

At the same time, the remilitarization of West Germany was already planned,
or at least desired, by the US.

Indeed. And Washington shall be even happier if they can merge the resources of West Austria in that remilitarization, too.

With Austria in, that would make the situation in "Greater West Germany"
messy, and create much stronger socialist and pacifist movements.

With Communist "rape" of East Austria, I do not see pacifism in western Austrian landers be any stronger than in the rest of West Germany. If anything, with the Socialist bastion of Vienna gone, I see them becoming CDU/CSU electoral strongholds like Bavaria.

While most Germans cautiously took their hands off politics,
the unique self-understanding of Austrians as occupation victims
would provide for much more activist potential.

Which "unique self-understanding" ? East Germany and East Austria shall be two sides of the same coin, even if they stay separate. Germans in Hamburg and in Salzburg shall share the same feelings about national division.
 
Last edited:

Eurofed

Banned
Are there any possiblities to expand "East" Austria, with some Hungarian or Czechoslovakian territorium with somekind of industry, to make it a sustainable state.

In the 1970s the Soviets jumped on the idea, that such an animal like a united german Nation didn´t exist and that there was two different Nations in West and East. With this and the ongoing "fight" for a seperate austrian Nation since the 1950s, there surly will Anschluss of EA at the GDR. I don´t think EA will drain the resources of the COMECON much more then Cuba.
But if nothing else helps, maybe a CASSR may be possible.

Hmm, maybe a confederation between EA and Czechoslovakia or Hungary ? This might make EA more viable. Czechs are not going to be enthused about it, given bad memories and fears of irredentist claims about the Sudetenland, and East Austrians even less so, given Czech ethnic cleansing of the Sudets. I think a confederation between EA and Hungary might be more acceptable to both partners, and require less Soviet cohercion efforts to be implemented and maintained.
 
Last edited:
In spite of Freivolk's really good suggestion,
the major obstacle: Since the fall of the Nazis, Austrians have abandoned their
long-standing identification as Germans. The desire for a union with Germany
was certainly popular in Austria in the 20s in 30s also outside the extreme right;
but that had changed completely. In spite of the considerable support of the "Anschluss" in Austria,
any thought of a combination with Germany would have been blemished as an occupation of Austria by Germany from 45 on.

Moreover, the Austrian population had a strong desire for the position
the country could actually take for the whole Cold War time: A neutral one.
At the same time, the remilitarization of West Germany was already planned,
or at least desired, by the US.
With Austria in, that would make the situation in "Greater West Germany"
messy, and create much stronger socialist and pacifist movements.
While most Germans cautiously took their hands off politics,
the unique self-understanding of Austrians as occupation victims
would provide for much more activist potential.
Stalin would have liked it.

Actually we have some kind of example. The Saarland. Like in Austria there were a strong attempt to create a own identity after 1945. In the end till the plebicit in 1957 nobody really knew how succesfull it was.
In OTL the seperate austrian way led to full freedom and neutrality in 1955. But ITTL this way isn´t open anymore in 1950. Austria is divided and both parts are forced to join the two blocs. And it could be, that West-Austria is in the beginning is actually the poorer, less industrialized part. In this case the idea of a seperate austrian identity will propably lose a lot of their appeal, like the idea of a seperate Saaridentity lost their appeal after the westgerman Wirtschaftswunder took of.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Just like old times eh?

More or less. You might expect the Soviet propaganda machine present it as "Danubian unity, done right by socialist brotherhood instead of dynastic oppression" and such. Stalinism was actually rather keen at reinventing a lot of Tsarist imperialist ideas with Communist paint, so why not an Habsburg one ?
 
@freivolk:
I think your TL is quite plausible.
Nevertheless, I am still convinced that the desire for unification with
Germany was strong in the Saarland from the very beginning,
and the desire for independence was strong in Austria.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I think your TL is quite plausible.
Nevertheless, I am still convinced that the desire for unification with
Germany was strong in the Saarland from the very beginning,
and the desire for independence was strong in Austria.

I think hindsight is affecting your perspective here. Austria's sole experience as an independent country (as opposed to leader of a dynastic multinational empire) in 1950-1954 was the interwar period, far from a stellar success, and Austrians' self-identification at the time was not really more apart from other Germans than Bavaria. I.e. very strong regional self-identity, but not (yet) a separate national one.
 
@freivolk:
I think your TL is quite plausible.
Nevertheless, I am still convinced that the desire for unification with
Germany was strong in the Saarland from the very beginning,
and the desire for independence was strong in Austria.

Naturally Austria has much more of a tradition for an independent state then ´the Saarland. On the other side, nobody really can say, how strong the own identity was at the beginning of the fifties. After all, some german-national tradition exist at the austrian Right till today.
 
Austria's sole experience as an independent country (as opposed to leader of a dynastic multinational empire) in 1950-1954 was the interwar period, far from a stellar success, and Austrians' self-identification at the time was not really more apart from other Germans than Bavaria.

The Austrians had had a government crushed by the Nazis,
the Bavarians had only everything else crushed as everybody else.
At the latest in '45, this consciousness has fueled Austrian desire to
stay away from Germany.
Of course this is arguing from hindsight, namely from '49 back to '36.
 

Eurofed

Banned
The Austrians had had a government crushed by the Nazis,

Such "government" was an Italian-puppet clerico-fascist dictatorship which had taken power by force in the early '30s and in turn was kicked out by the Nazi coup in 1938. While the Austrian Nazi indeed used a mix of uprising and threat of German invasion to take over, in all evidence the Anschluss itself fulfilled the wish for national unification of the vast majority of the Austrian people, as provied by various elements: a) the democratic Parliament of Austria in 1919 had voted to join Germany b) there was no significant popular resistance to the Anschluss c) there was no evidence whatsoever of an Austrian separatist movement from 1938 to 1945, allegiance of the Austrian people to the Nazi regime was indistinguishable from the rest of Germany and resistance to it had an antifascist, not national, character, just as in the rest of Germany.

The existence of an Austrian national self-consciousness and Austria as an unwilling victim of Hitler was something that the Austrian gradually reinvented for the themselves during the Cold War.

Of course this is arguing from hindsight, namely from '49 back to '36.

As said previously, such hindsight was something the Austrians gradually invented for themselves when separate neutral independence looked a valid means to throw Soviet occupation off their backs, from the 50s to the 70s. It certainly did not happen overnight in 1945. ITTL Communist takeover in East Austria closes that road, so West Austrians has no reason whatsoever to reinvent themselves as a different people, and very good reasons to reinforce their ties with other West Germans. Different circumstances, a wholly different self-narrative.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Therefor we work now with a scenario where the Western allies (speak the USA) support an Anschluß of an Rump-Austria.

Indeed, and your PoD is a fine way of accomplishing it. With the Soviets setting up a Communist regime in East Austria in 1949-50, the USA have no interest whatsoever in keeping West Austria and West Germany separate. By 1949-50, the USA are in full Cold War mood and strongly push for a sturdy West Germany as an anti-Soviet bulwark (they are vocally pushing for its rearmament), west Austrian Landers can only strenghten it further. As long as they have troops in West Germany and the latter is firmly inserted in EU and NATO, they do not fear German revanchism. "Keeping the Germans down, the Soviet out, and the Americans in", the famous definition of Cold War NATO.
 
Top