AH Challenge: Australia is a Great Power

The key to the development of Australia is the environment. Which is marginal: unreliable rainfall (read about the development of sheep stations in South Australia during the second half of 19th century: a few years of above-average rainfall expanded inland the "useful" territory, then the rains went back to normal, or below it, and the expansion failed). Plus Australian soil is quite poorish, and old, very old: it has not been renewed by glaciations, nor by volcanism.


Whilst you're right about the rainfall limits, you're wrong about the rest. Yes, parts of South Australia are useless, but there are also other parts full of vineyards producing some of the best wine globally. Likewise, although the centre of Australia is again rather useless, all along the east coast meanwhile, a distance of over 3 000kms, we have very fertile soil, not only thanks to descent rainfall supporting originally lush forests & the like, but also thanks to volcanic activity ensuring good soil, eg, just outside of Brisbane you have the Glasshouse Mountains which are the leftovers of once active volcanos. The same thing happened elsewhere along the east coast, whether it be near Sydney, Cairns, or Melbourne. Similarly the Snowy Mountains have been partly created thanks to glaciers.

Plus I draw your attention to the various irrigation schemes around the country, whether it be the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Scheme or the ones in the Kimberley region of WA to name but two. Yes, if these regions relied simply on rainfall, they'd be failures, but introduce water from a different source, & the soil is more than capable of being highly productive akin to anywhere else where rain is common.



J. Diamond does a good analysis of the marginality of the australian environment in Collapse (which is a book I do recommend as a must-read).

20 millions are already quite close to the total sustainable Australian capacity (a lot of people believe that they are already beyond sustainability).


It depends. If we manage the environment more wisely, far beter than has been the historical situation in 200 odd years of white domination, especially in regards to water, the population can achieve much higher levels. Having said that, I'm not advocating a population of 800 million, nor 400 million, but a population of 50 million shouldn't cause some Australian apocalypse.


Australians are rich, can stay rich in the foreseeable future, but they cannot become a super-power. And we need a big reliable friend in case some bogey comes out of Asia.


Can't trust those Indonesians now can we... ;)


I will go one further: Australian states being co-opted in the USA is much more likely (by a couple of order of magnitudes at least) than Australia becoming a super-power.


No! Never! Death to the American Satan or is it Great Satan or whatever it is... :D
 
Whilst you're right about the rainfall limits, you're wrong about the rest. Yes, parts of South Australia are useless, but there are also other parts full of vineyards producing some of the best wine globally. Likewise, although the centre of Australia is again rather useless, all along the east coast meanwhile, a distance of over 3 000kms, we have very fertile soil, not only thanks to descent rainfall supporting originally lush forests & the like, but also thanks to volcanic activity ensuring good soil, eg, just outside of Brisbane you have the Glasshouse Mountains which are the leftovers of once active volcanos. The same thing happened elsewhere along the east coast, whether it be near Sydney, Cairns, or Melbourne. Similarly the Snowy Mountains have been partly created thanks to glaciers.
Yes, the Australian Alps had a glaciation, like Tasmania did. Which means that parts of Victoria and all of Tasmania are the only areas in Australia with a soil comparable with Eurasia's agricultural zones. The Glasshouse mountains were active volcanoes in the distant past, but too long ago. The problem with Australian soil (excepting portions of Victoria and Tasmania) is that soil nutrients have not been renewed within "recent" geological times, except for dust coming from Asia and some volcanic ashes from eruptions in Indonesia.
The "lush forests" were there (and in part - small part :mad: - they still are), but were cleared to get agriculturally useful land (which was one of the worst mistakes made during the colonisation of Australia: the obsession with land clearing has been the source of huge ecological disasters). Now the problems with cultivated land are substantially of three types: soil nutrients are leached away, top-soil is not protected by vegetation all the year round (which causes erosion and topsoil blown away by winds) and need to artificially irrigate (lowering the water table, destroying wetlands and rivers ecologies, resulting into salinity issues, very bad ones). You can go on, and ponder the havoc produced by artificial nutrients and pesticides being dispersed in the environment and so on. I'm not a rabid ecological freak, but there is a limit (a sustenaible limit) to each and every ecology.

Plus I draw your attention to the various irrigation schemes around the country, whether it be the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Scheme or the ones in the Kimberley region of WA to name but two. Yes, if these regions relied simply on rainfall, they'd be failures, but introduce water from a different source, & the soil is more than capable of being highly productive akin to anywhere else where rain is common.
Arggggghhhhhh! Ever heard of the "black lands of kazakhstan"? It still is one of the worst ecological disasters in the world: Krutschev approved in the late 1950s a project to divert a couple of major Siberian rivers which were flowing into the Arctic sea, and use their water to irrigate the "black lands of kazakhstan". To make it short: the Kazakh lands produced well for 10 years or so, then salinity problems and loss of nutrients destroyed any residual economic value. The Aral sea was affected by these huge changes, and its surface is nowadays less than 30% of what it was in the 1950s (not 20,000 years ago, 50 years ago :mad:). I could go on, but the message is clear: it is madness to think to move huge quantities of water thousands of kilometers away, and believe that nothing bad will happen. I'll fight with all my forces against that Qld and WA projects: I repeat, madness.





It depends. If we manage the environment more wisely, far beter than has been the historical situation in 200 odd years of white domination, especially in regards to water, the population can achieve much higher levels. Having said that, I'm not advocating a population of 800 million, nor 400 million, but a population of 50 million shouldn't cause some Australian apocalypse.
We did manage the environment very poorly. In a way Australia was saved by its own size, and the difficulty of developing inland areas. If you can believe that higher numbers of immigrants would also bring a better or wiser environmental management (which was not even a word until a couple of generations ago), I've a few real estate opportunities I would LOOOOVE discussing with you :D




Can't trust those Indonesians now can we... ;)

and the Chinese, the Vietnamites, the Philipinos. Australia has resources and spaces which are truly coveted by all our neighbours.



No! Never! Death to the American Satan or is it Great Satan or whatever it is... :D

I'll drink to that. But don't tear up the joint defense agreement, PLEAAAAASE
 
This thread will become a vortex of Australian arguments which nobody else will care about. So in the interests of helping I think Australia's carrying capacity is about 25 million, and doing big irrigation schemes will only make things worse in the meduim to long term. That is an about 20% increase in our population/GDP, and with a different development line we could have improvements we could have an even higher GDP, perhaps 30% of our real GDP now. Add 30% to our defence budget and we can afford a sizable power projection capability.
 
To begin with it's encouraging to see a Queenslander who's interested in environmental matters such as yourself. You're a rare breed as Queenslanders go. So great stuff! :cool:

Now I would have replied last night, but I was watching the State of Origin where the Blues won. Needless to say I was overjoyed & too busy drinking in celebration :D



Yes, the Australian Alps had a glaciation, like Tasmania did. Which means that parts of Victoria and all of Tasmania are the only areas in Australia with a soil comparable with Eurasia's agricultural zones. The Glasshouse mountains were active volcanoes in the distant past, but too long ago. The problem with Australian soil (excepting portions of Victoria and Tasmania) is that soil nutrients have not been renewed within "recent" geological times, except for dust coming from Asia and some volcanic ashes from eruptions in Indonesia.
The "lush forests" were there (and in part - small part :mad: - they still are), but were cleared to get agriculturally useful land (which was one of the worst mistakes made during the colonisation of Australia: the obsession with land clearing has been the source of huge ecological disasters). Now the problems with cultivated land are substantially of three types: soil nutrients are leached away, top-soil is not protected by vegetation all the year round (which causes erosion and topsoil blown away by winds) and need to artificially irrigate (lowering the water table, destroying wetlands and rivers ecologies, resulting into salinity issues, very bad ones). You can go on, and ponder the havoc produced by artificial nutrients and pesticides being dispersed in the environment and so on. I'm not a rabid ecological freak, but there is a limit (a sustenaible limit) to each and every ecology.


Now onto the serious stuff... The problem with the analysis of Australian soils & conditions is that, & it's just not you (so don't take it personally) but many experts as well (especially overseas ones), & that is people look at Australian conditions through European/North American eyes - especially in relation to traditional crops transplaneted from Europe & North America. Naturally, Australia being on the other side of the planet, whilst also being a unique continent in its own right, there are going to be fundamental difficulties in any such analysis. But that doesn't make Australian soil infertile as they may suggest. Afterall, & even though I may disagree about the what you may call the "resent" volcanic stuff (considering volcanic activity in Australia did take place whilst Aboriginals lived in isolation here - so we're talking we'll within 40 000 years), you must realise that unlike Europe, which has undergone thousands of years of intensive cultivation, Australia has only know such practices for one to two hundred years. Consequentially the Australian soil hasn't been been exhausted anywhere akin to other regions where European farm practices have been introduce which has been environmentally destructive over a long term.

But leaving even aside what I've just said above, the quintessental problem, that's been ignored until the last 30 odd years in Australian farming, in regards to soil, & this is where the European farming analysis gets it wrong, is not that Australian soil is unferile, but that we have low amounts of Phosphorus in our soils. Now the native plants, including the eatable crop producing ones, love our soils, because they've evolved to deal with Australia's uniqueness come soil. Most cash crops from Europe & North America, however, demand high Phosphorus in the soil & hence our dilema. The problem is, alas, farmers & producers then run around claiming Australia soil is no good, dump vast amounts of fertiliser everywhere that's counterproductive to the overall environment, when they should be planting crops, or varities of traditional cash crops, which can cope with low Phosphorus soils.

Now in the past they have stumbled across some such crops. Rice, for example, loves the soil in the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area as I believe they produce more per hectare than anywhere else. All the farmers had to do was add water - which was the fundamental point I was making before: that it's a lack of water, not soil quality, that's Australia's real problem. And again cotton loves Australian soil & wherever it's planted it grows extremely well. But real success story is the Shiraz grape. Grown everywhere else, it's a minor red wine grape considered averag - transplant it to Australia (eg Hunter Valley & South Australia) & its completely tranformed into a world renown wine (Penfolds Grange, Hill of Grace, Wolf Blass, Brokenwood, just to name a few). And that's all thanks to the soil. Needless to say, the CSIRO & various universities have been developing cash crop varities to deal with Australian conditions, but it doesn't help when farmers practice extremely bad land management like complete land clearing & the like which Queensland still does at record speed!


Arggggghhhhhh! Ever heard of the "black lands of kazakhstan"? It still is one of the worst ecological disasters in the world: Krutschev approved in the late 1950s a project to divert a couple of major Siberian rivers which were flowing into the Arctic sea, and use their water to irrigate the "black lands of kazakhstan". To make it short: the Kazakh lands produced well for 10 years or so, then salinity problems and loss of nutrients destroyed any residual economic value. The Aral sea was affected by these huge changes, and its surface is nowadays less than 30% of what it was in the 1950s (not 20,000 years ago, 50 years ago :mad:). I could go on, but the message is clear: it is madness to think to move huge quantities of water thousands of kilometers away, and believe that nothing bad will happen. I'll fight with all my forces against that Qld and WA projects: I repeat, madness.


Well this comparison of the USSR & Australia is unfair in many respects, as you could site these environmental disasters in the USSR & win any discussion on such matters. Afterall the USSR had a dreadful record on just about everything. You just have to point towards their nuclear industry & go no further. Nevertheless, they do make for excllent case studies in how not to manage an industry in the face of environmental disaster - so they shouldn't be ignored but studied. Australia, though, has never been that bad. Having said that, it's not that we haven't made mistakes as well. Salination has become a problem for some parts of the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area, over the last 70 or so years, but they have learnt from those mistakes by limiting further water wastage & stopping the water table from raising significantly. Consequentially I do believe that the Kimberley region, which came much later, doesn't suffer the same problems. Likewise the Snowy Mountains Scheme has been a great success, even though it took them 30 odd years to realise that they have to let some water flow back down the Snowy River to save its environment. Yet fundamentially, in Australia, to ignore the economic benefits, which come from water diversion, is ensuring disaster. Not only do these irrigation areas feed our own population, but they also ensure vast amounts of export dollars which helps in keeping Australians living a high standard of life. Otherwise we'd end up as somewhere like those poor third-world countries where millions of their people live & die in poverty & starvation.






We did manage the environment very poorly. In a way Australia was saved by its own size, and the difficulty of developing inland areas. If you can believe that higher numbers of immigrants would also bring a better or wiser environmental management (which was not even a word until a couple of generations ago), I've a few real estate opportunities I would LOOOOVE discussing with you :D


No arguements from me about the poor management of our environoment over the years. It's only been recently that things have changed. Furthermore we should be looking towards traditional Aboriginal land management methods considering they did very well for 40 000 years without any so-called civilised help from Europeans. I will pass on the real estate opportunities, though, as I have a lovely place already in the Hunter Valley amongst the vineyards, not to mention its a golden rule where I come from that you don't do any land deals with a Queenslander :D






and the Chinese, the Vietnamites, the Philipinos. Australia has resources and spaces which are truly coveted by all our neighbours.


Well I hope they're all good swimmers ;)





I'll drink to that. But don't tear up the joint defense agreement, PLEAAAAASE


Talking about real estate - I wouldn't want to own any nearby property around Pine Gap as that place would be the first location on anyone's nuclear hit-list. :eek:
 
Just as a matter of interest, why do we need to grow more food to make Australia a greater power? We already grow enough food to feed 80 million people. And how much greater do we need to be? Would 25 million people and a 25% increase in GDP do it? Or do we 'need' 50 mil and a doubling or more of GDP?
 
Just as a matter of interest, why do we need to grow more food to make Australia a greater power? We already grow enough food to feed 80 million people. And how much greater do we need to be? Would 25 million people and a 25% increase in GDP do it? Or do we 'need' 50 mil and a doubling or more of GDP?


Well we have to feed all the Poeples which we conquer somehow. And there's 200 million in Indonesia alone ;)
 
I think the key to becoming a greater power is to delibrately limit the extra territory we have. Australia plus the other proposed states, NZ and Fiji could support PNG and maybe a few other important nearby islands, but vast underdeveloped Asian areas would be a deadweight.
 
I think the key to becoming a greater power is to delibrately limit the extra territory we have. Australia plus the other proposed states, NZ and Fiji could support PNG and maybe a few other important nearby islands, but vast underdeveloped Asian areas would be a deadweight.



But none of them have significant reserves of oil other than Indonesia. So, in latter 20th C definitions, if they don't have oil resources, they aren't worth invading, oopppsss sorry, liberating :rolleyes: ;)
 
I tend to agree that Australia's history might have been substantially different if the city named after Lord Sydney had been built in Port Phillip Bay. Imagine the Rocks in Melbourne - how weird would that be? Considering the natural advantages Victoria has, and how fast it grew once it got going, could perhaps the growth of the country been faster than in OTL, while NSW would never get going until you could access the plentiful plains, declare yourself owner of pasture and shoot the blacks who lived there.
 
We already grow enough food to feed 80 million people.

Really? I'm surprised.

Now the native plants, including the eatable crop producing ones, love our soils, because they've evolved to deal with Australia's uniqueness come soil. Most cash crops from Europe & North America, however, demand high Phosphorus in the soil & hence our dilema.

What kind of crops would that be?
 
What kind of crops would that be?


The so-called Bush Tucker plants. They already grow the Macadamia nuts for cash crops, but there's many others which could be grown as a substitute for the European et al introduced type plants. So there are native grain producing plants, which they could grow, in place of wheat, in order to produce flour etc. Similarly there are native figs, cherries, limes, plums, apples, oranges, tomatoes, etc. There are also numerous herbs & spices which could be grown covering much of the imported stuff. Likewise native root vegetables could be used. Now many of them don't look exactly the same, as their traditional cash crop counterparts, but then again many of the original cash crops don't overly look much like their modern counterparts either. Obviously, if they did want the native produce to look like their introduced counterparts, there's nothing to stop the CSIRO &/or various universities to develop/breed new varities in a manner akin to what's been done to these traditional cash crops over the years. Fundamentially, though, all these native crop producing plants don't have the problems dealing with our low Phosphorus soils, nor the low rainfall rates, unlike many of the introduced cash crop plants.
 
Australia has oil, we just don't use it to keep people on the dole, and we have ample alternative energy resources. We have been able to get plenty rich and reasonably powerful without being a huge oil producer. We don't need to saddle ourselves with hundreds of millions of poor people to get export levels of oil. If we had better infrastructure, such as plenty of good quality electrified railways, we wouldn't be so beholden to oil.
 
Australia has oil, we just don't use it to keep people on the dole, and we have ample alternative energy resources. We have been able to get plenty rich and reasonably powerful without being a huge oil producer. We don't need to saddle ourselves with hundreds of millions of poor people to get export levels of oil. If we had better infrastructure, such as plenty of good quality electrified railways, we wouldn't be so beholden to oil.


But you're talkng about the OTL, with a population of 21 millions. It's a different story come this AH with a far greater population all wanting to drive their cars in a manner akin to the USA... ;)
 
I'd argue that one factor which would make Australia a greater power is to not be a slave to oil, to have practical alternatives to driving cars ALL the time. If trains were faster, more convenient and cheaper we could still be very affluent and travel on our home produced energy resources. One of the keys to greater Australian power would be tailoring solutions to our situation, not borrowing entirely form one place like the US.
 
I'd argue that one factor which would make Australia a greater power is to not be a slave to oil, to have practical alternatives to driving cars ALL the time. If trains were faster, more convenient and cheaper we could still be very affluent and travel on our home produced energy resources. One of the keys to greater Australian power would be tailoring solutions to our situation, not borrowing entirely form one place like the US.


Well at the rate things are going, what with Greenhouse not to mention that oil is running out even though demand for it is rising globally, your thoughts here may soon come to pass. Although judging by the public transport disaster in Sydney yesterday, I think I'll hang onto my Saab for a little longer...
 
One of those old school dystopic SHWI TLs had Australia become the dominant world power, rather implausibly, I thought.

The anarchists kill a lot of people and American forces serve extensively on the Eastern front, getting drawn into the RCW in a big way. Anyone remember this?
 
But you're talkng about the OTL, with a population of 21 millions. It's a different story come this AH with a far greater population all wanting to drive their cars in a manner akin to the USA... ;)

Maybe the Aussies decide to colonize parts of Indonesia.
 
Maybe the Aussies decide to colonize parts of Indonesia.


Well the Dutch are already in position by the time Australia would be in a position to do so other than locations like New Guinea. So it'd be too late unless it was colonisation thanks to a war with Holland
 
To begin with it's encouraging to see a Queenslander who's interested in environmental matters such as yourself. You're a rare breed as Queenslanders go. So great stuff! :cool:

Now I would have replied last night, but I was watching the State of Origin where the Blues won. Needless to say I was overjoyed & too busy drinking in celebration :D
I'm on holiday in Europe, and I've no continuous access to internet. No problem, however.

Re. my fellow Queenslanders, I would not say they are not interested in environment. It's true that we'are developing fast, and when this happens environment pays always a price. Still things (and moods) are changing fast.
Mind, I'm no agronomist, and my expertise is in other matters (energy and emissions). Still I do believe that everyone should take the effort to be better informed on environmental issues, and not just leave any and every decision to politicians. :mad:






Now onto the serious stuff... The problem with the analysis of Australian soils & conditions is that, & it's just not you (so don't take it personally) but many experts as well (especially overseas ones), & that is people look at Australian conditions through European/North American eyes - especially in relation to traditional crops transplaneted from Europe & North America. Naturally, Australia being on the other side of the planet, whilst also being a unique continent in its own right, there are going to be fundamental difficulties in any such analysis. But that doesn't make Australian soil infertile as they may suggest. Afterall, & even though I may disagree about the what you may call the "resent" volcanic stuff (considering volcanic activity in Australia did take place whilst Aboriginals lived in isolation here - so we're talking we'll within 40 000 years), you must realise that unlike Europe, which has undergone thousands of years of intensive cultivation, Australia has only know such practices for one to two hundred years. Consequentially the Australian soil hasn't been been exhausted anywhere akin to other regions where European farm practices have been introduce which has been environmentally destructive over a long term.

But leaving even aside what I've just said above, the quintessental problem, that's been ignored until the last 30 odd years in Australian farming, in regards to soil, & this is where the European farming analysis gets it wrong, is not that Australian soil is unferile, but that we have low amounts of Phosphorus in our soils. Now the native plants, including the eatable crop producing ones, love our soils, because they've evolved to deal with Australia's uniqueness come soil. Most cash crops from Europe & North America, however, demand high Phosphorus in the soil & hence our dilema. The problem is, alas, farmers & producers then run around claiming Australia soil is no good, dump vast amounts of fertiliser everywhere that's counterproductive to the overall environment, when they should be planting crops, or varities of traditional cash crops, which can cope with low Phosphorus soils.

Now in the past they have stumbled across some such crops. Rice, for example, loves the soil in the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area as I believe they produce more per hectare than anywhere else. All the farmers had to do was add water - which was the fundamental point I was making before: that it's a lack of water, not soil quality, that's Australia's real problem. And again cotton loves Australian soil & wherever it's planted it grows extremely well. But real success story is the Shiraz grape. Grown everywhere else, it's a minor red wine grape considered averag - transplant it to Australia (eg Hunter Valley & South Australia) & its completely tranformed into a world renown wine (Penfolds Grange, Hill of Grace, Wolf Blass, Brokenwood, just to name a few). And that's all thanks to the soil. Needless to say, the CSIRO & various universities have been developing cash crop varities to deal with Australian conditions, but it doesn't help when farmers practice extremely bad land management like complete land clearing & the like which Queensland still does at record speed!
You're making some good points. However, land clearing started a couple of hudred years ago, and accellerated pretty quickly. And there are good reasons for having selected European (or better Fertile Crescent) crops and animals: it's because they are much more efficient.

I think you are missing the real issue, though. There have been regions in the Middle East (namely Mesopotamia, but also the mediterranean coast) that have been intensively farmed for close to 10 thousand years. Nowadays they are certainly less productive that they were in the past. The main issue is not loss of nutrient in the soil: it's rather a combination of climate changes, de-forestation, overgrazing, soil erosion. It's also quite likely that a lot of these "Mediterranean" areas have been overpopulated for centuries if not millennia, and that they were ecologically marginal areas to start with. My personal belief is that de-forestation (with the usual corollary of flooding, erosion etc) is the main culprit.

Australia (in view of the unreliability of rainfall) is another ecologically-marginal area, which has to be dealt with with a lot of care.


Well this comparison of the USSR & Australia is unfair in many respects, as you could site these environmental disasters in the USSR & win any discussion on such matters. Afterall the USSR had a dreadful record on just about everything. You just have to point towards their nuclear industry & go no further. Nevertheless, they do make for excllent case studies in how not to manage an industry in the face of environmental disaster - so they shouldn't be ignored but studied. Australia, though, has never been that bad. Having said that, it's not that we haven't made mistakes as well. Salination has become a problem for some parts of the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area, over the last 70 or so years, but they have learnt from those mistakes by limiting further water wastage & stopping the water table from raising significantly. Consequentially I do believe that the Kimberley region, which came much later, doesn't suffer the same problems. Likewise the Snowy Mountains Scheme has been a great success, even though it took them 30 odd years to realise that they have to let some water flow back down the Snowy River to save its environment. Yet fundamentially, in Australia, to ignore the economic benefits, which come from water diversion, is ensuring disaster. Not only do these irrigation areas feed our own population, but they also ensure vast amounts of export dollars which helps in keeping Australians living a high standard of life. Otherwise we'd end up as somewhere like those poor third-world countries where millions of their people live & die in poverty & starvation.

The consensus nowadays is that all the excitement for big hydro schemes (both for irrigation and energy production) made us blind to the possible "collateral damage". I do agree that Australia is not as bad as the former URSS, not by an order of magnitude at least. Still when you think that Queensland rescinded the law about the mandatory clearing of land only a few years ago...
The awful status of the Murray-Darling system is another case in point: here i think it's mostly the over-allotment of water quotas, and the predilection for cash crops (like cotton, which I don't like as much as you do). I think we've been lucky with the Snowy river scheme, which was not a real ecological disaster (actually it worked well enough); as you point out, however, the idea that you could just stop water flow was how can I say? Unsound?



No arguements from me about the poor management of our environoment over the years. It's only been recently that things have changed. Furthermore we should be looking towards traditional Aboriginal land management methods considering they did very well for 40 000 years without any so-called civilised help from Europeans. I will pass on the real estate opportunities, though, as I have a lovely place already in the Hunter Valley amongst the vineyards, not to mention its a golden rule where I come from that you don't do any land deals with a Queenslander :D
The Aboriginals had certainly less "intrusive" land management methods. On the other hand, the numbers were quite different from nowadays, and they were hunters-gatherers, not farmers. Now I can run off the top of my mind 10 or 20 instances where farming civilizations collapsed, and not a single one where a hunter-gatherer society did. Makes one think, doesn't it?

I'm a bit surprised (and hurt) by your golden rule. In Queensland, we usually agree on the risks in dealing with NSW city slicks :p
 
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